Scripted fights.

While 1.0 was not the best game the fights was fun cause the same thing would never happen every single damn fight. Fights in this game are fun but after a while they are not cause they are too scripted.

Example: When ever Garuda comes down from a jump in phase 1 she always does downburst. In phase 2 onward she always does slipstream after summoning the clones. She always summons the winds in the same order every single time.

I'm also not saying making it so random that titan does stomps 3 times in a row.

The Coincounter fight in 1.0 was one of my favs cause seeing that boss do his hate reset move 4 times in a row was a blast and always kept me on my toes as an tank, and the same for dps.

I feel like you need no awareness in this game cause everything follows the screen play 100% of the time. If u can follow that script you are 100% fine.

Edit: Just to add even the normal mobs are scripted like the iron giants they always do the swipe first then kings will.

Please devs make the fights less scripted so they can be more fun.

From what I read from Yoshi (a quote he gave), it seems it is intentional that it is fully scripted. He mentioned something about people having to 'memorize the pattern' (I forget the full context). But it does mean they intend for it to be fully scripted.

I guess it is so:
Super elite/hard-core/whatever people figure out the fight, record it, put it up.
People memorize the pattern.
People then recite their lines from memory in the dungeons.
Get loot.

I guess its good for people who like to memorize things. On the plus side, I know now some of the battles so well I can do it half asleep or while not even looking as everything is easily pre-determinable.

On the down side, I, personally, do not find that kind of battle terribly exciting. It's kind of like playing chess and knowing all your opponents moves, and the only things you need to worry about is if your fingers touch the wrong pieces by accident, or you don't hit the clock fast enough.

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Originally Posted by Asiaine

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It's pretty lame and boring tbh I ran AV in 1.0 so many times and never got tired of it cause that mid boss never did the same thing every time in the exact same order. It's gonna be pretty sad that fights are gonna be scripted if thats true gonna be some dumb add on that tell u every move before the boss does it.

Currently alot of people complain about lag problems the server not registering if a player is not inside an AoE attack anymore. What do you think would happen if they changed fight to have random patterns? Right now it's the only thing that allows people with connection problems to progress in the game.
But my guess is that the upcomming extreme mode fights will randomize the pattern.

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Originally Posted by Firon

It's pretty lame and boring tbh I ran AV in 1.0 so many times and never got tired of it cause that mid boss never did the same thing every time in the exact same order. It's gonna be pretty sad that fights are gonna be scripted if thats true gonna be some dumb add on that tell u every move before the boss does it.

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It almost is.. My FC has people who will shout out Titan moves before Titan does them, so we know what to do. I think Crafting might be the most dynamic content left! You never know when that orb will go unstable!

I'm hoping that it will be adjusted in the future, but I have no information upon which to base that hope.

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Originally Posted by Miiu

Currently alot of people complain about lag problems the server not registering if a player is not inside an AoE attack anymore. What do you think would happen if they changed fight to have random patterns? Right now it's the only thing that allows people with connection problems to progress in the game.
But my guess is that the upcomming extreme mode fights will randomize the pattern.

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We can have random patterns and not be a Lag issue. For example, the total time we have to 'react' and 'move away' would increase (to accommodate lag). Or the amount of damage done is less so time to heal in between (but rewards with not using up healing magic if you do move away in time). There are a few options, but it would move the game away from 'twitchy/action/fast-paced'.

Having 'fast-paced' and 'unpredictable' and 'no-lag'... that's going to be hard....

Well than another group would complain that the fights are becoming too easy if you give people more time to avoid the attacks. I don't think you can make everyone happy in this case. I'm all for randomized patterns + quick reaction time. Because I don't really have any lag issues except the ones that occur because I'm nowhere near the server. (playing from the EU)
But I'm not going around demanding harder fights as long as there are people who have those problems.

Doesn't bother me in the slightest, I like being able to memorize important fights to help make them easier.

Kinda hoping for the extreme fights that they'll be a bit more RNG in nature..

So what exactly happen in v1.0?

Coz most, if not all MMORPG that I played seems to always have a pattern, or I'm misunderstood your term "scripted".

It's always a "time-triggered" or "HP triggered" attack, or a position dependent attack, but still all of it are scripted.

So which is which?

I'm not sure if we can discuss other games here, if yes, please do tell me so I can elaborate my example above.

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Originally Posted by Thorauku

So what exactly happen in v1.0?

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Basically like a lot of FFXI encounters (since it is the same team after all) a lot of XIV 1.x encounters wasn't always predictable, some had time/hp etc based triggers but before then they never did the same thing every single time - For example, Garuda ARR you know her teleport pattern like second nature, she'll always go to the same spot each time, in 1.x, it was always different and you had to be on your toes in order to dodge it (which is why you may see old time players mention looking at the minimap), which is why "skipping phases" wasn't just for speed purposes..it was for survival. 1.x you can get the patterns down, but the way they did their attacks weren't always the same.

Another example is Darnus's fights - He can either be cheap and try to destroy you with his AoE back to back along with lasers back to back, or he can be easy. Kind of like how every FF RPG has been before it. ARR is definitely more like generic MMOs now rather than FF style encounters which some may or may not like.

In ARR you can almost guarantee when they add in Moggle Mog you won't get the random hate rest and random people getting targeted for fluffy rape, it'll be more like it'll always target the tank. There's nothing inherently wrong with scripted encounters, but in comparison to the "horrible 1.2x" ARR seems like a downgrade rather than an upgrade in this regard.

As long as they make fights rely so much on heavy damage aoe markers and not fix the server polling, I dont support this.

I think the leveling of scripted is more than just triggered.
In some games, including V1.0, when the big bad boss reaches certain % of HP, they move onto a different set of attack patterns.

Here, what we are saying is, in addition to this, every move they will do next can be anticipated. She will jump there, she will jump there, she will do this attack next, she will call those people, she will move back 10 feet, she will move right 10 feet, an eye in the storm will appear 10 feet to the right in 5 seconds. 10 seconds later two sisters will appear.

It is extremely scripted, and Garuda is a good example. After having done it so often I am sure 8 people could write a tool and just auto-run Garuda all the time with a pre-programmed set of actions without even having to see what Garuda does.

Wolfes' Den, a 2.1 content with 100% unscripted fights

For something that's meant to be done a lot of times (because, MMORPG), I ask... why?

Seems counter intuitive to me, unless the plan is having players not enjoying the fight itself (because it's always the same), only looking forward to their phat lewts and hating whoever gets in their way, because silly, Weight of the Land always comes after the Tumult and then after the tableflip, l2p and get out of my group.

While I don't really want to speak for or against scripting versus randomly generated patterns, this whole debate is predicated on a rather interesting aspect of MMO PvE design. That is, enemies in MMOs aren't trying to win. There is an extremely basic AI algorithm and data structure called a min/max tree that could be modified to make a dynamic two agent system (enemy vs. party) that would constantly adapt to the current flow of battle and be extremely unpredictable. It's not even difficult, anyone who has taken a single class in basic artificial intelligence would be familiar with the idea. It's how your computer Chess game works.

The reason why no one ever does it is simple. Classic MMO PvE isn't about the struggle between you and the enemy. The enemy isn't trying to win. The encounter presents you with a series of challenges, and tests your ability to overcome them.

I'm genuinly curious, so I will pose an open question - and please give this a few moments thought about what it would actually entail: Would you actually like an enemy (in PvE) that predicted your future moves; calculated the optimal response and executed the most efficient way to defeat the party? An enemy that given equal level with the party, would likely win more than half the time?

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Originally Posted by Hulan

I'm genuinly curious, so I will pose an open question - and please give this a few moments thought about what it would actually entail: Would you actually like an enemy (in PvE) that predicted your future moves; calculated the optimal response and executed the most efficient way to defeat the party? An enemy that given equal level with the party, would likely win more than half the time?

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There has never been anything in any game that I couldn't beat with enough time and effort. The only way you wouldn't win more than half the time if you know what you are doing is if the enemy is over powered. In ARR, over powered would be equivalent to something like tanks taking 5k damage every 2.5 seconds repeatedly.

I would like them to fix the lag problems (which I rarely have) first. Then yes, randomized battles would be welcomed to me. Given today's games, Demon's Souls and Dark Souls probably fit your description the best and I am awesome at those now even though I died several times when I learned the fight (hence why they have "Prepare to Die" edition Souls games).

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Originally Posted by xRitzx

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Demon Souls line of gaming is not difficult, nor is it brutal, its indifferent and repetitive. Every creature has a routine and tells, you just have more fluid movement and options in those games. The NPCs are not trying to win, they are performing the same scripts, just the scripts for them are more intricate. I doubt people as a general rule would like enemies to have AI.

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Originally Posted by Firon

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Random is good. To an extent.

Also, just to add in here, for those of you who want true random... What happens when Titan repeatedly casts Mountain Buster reaming through your tank in 2 hits and then 1 shotting the rest of the group?

Also, I am going to have to sue you for having my namesake in your sig. kthxbai.

I pretty much agree on all parts, not saying the current content needs to change, but I'd really like to see some upcoming content (or extreme modes) that give you something to "stay on your toes" about. As it is now, the second addon support comes out, we won't need the "videos" of other people doing it, you'll just need Deadly Boss Mods showing you the script as the battle happens, so you don't have to memorize anything.

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Originally Posted by Bladenite81

Demon Souls line of gaming is not difficult, nor is it brutal, its indifferent and repetitive. Every creature has a routine and tells, you just have more fluid movement and options in those games. The NPCs are not trying to win, they are performing the same scripts, just the scripts for them are more intricate. I doubt people as a general rule would like enemies to have AI.

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I agree Demon's Souls is not difficult after you learn. While enemies in Demon's Souls have scripts, they are usually based on the environment situation. For example, if you are facing an NPC black phantom, they will simply hack and slash you. If you have your back to an NPC black phantom, they will back stab you. I only play a few games a year and the Souls series is the closest I know of to Hulan's description. No other current moderately-popular game has the difficult reputation that Souls games do even though their difficulty is only because of trial and error. Maybe there's some niche game or something that fits Hulan's description but are there any popular modern games that closely fit Hulan's description?

No I do not believe there are any, honestly that is the thrill of PvP..playing against an opponent who truly wants to win and will do anything they know how to do in order to succeed. PvE would not last long as a general rule with such a punishing system in place, people would just leave.

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Originally Posted by Bladenite81

No I do not believe there are any, honestly that is the thrill of PvP..playing against an opponent who truly wants to win and will do anything they know how to do in order to succeed. PvE would not last long as a general rule with such a punishing system in place, people would just leave.

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That's the catch 22 - People say monsters don't "try to win", but if they try to win people ragequit because the monster did everything to win and thus want to be able to win no matter what.

People seem to have this mistaken notion that AI is about the computer trying to win. It's never the case because the computer can pretty much win every single time in almost any game if it actually tried. It doesn't even have to cheat most of the time, but of course it can do that too. Randomness is not smart. If you're controlling Titan, and suppose you have to obey all the aggro/CD/targetting rules and you're playing against 8 really good players. After a while you'd notice Landslide isn't actually hitting any of those guys and you'd stop wasting your time on that. You'd likely settle on a rotation like Bomb -> Tumult -> WotL -> MB (to maximize the amount the healer have to move before you try to finish tank off with MB), and if this rotation works you'd just stick to it 100% of the time. There would be nothing random about it, and there's no reason for you to do anything different once you found a rotation that can defeat the players.

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Originally Posted by Astarica

People seem to have this mistaken notion that AI is about the computer trying to win. It's never the case because the computer can pretty much win every single time in almost any game if it actually tried. It doesn't even have to cheat most of the time, but of course it can do that too. Randomness is not smart. If you're controlling Titan, and suppose you have to obey all the aggro/CD/targetting rules and you're playing against 8 really good players. After a while you'd notice Landslide isn't actually hitting any of those guys and you'd stop wasting your time on that. You'd likely settle on a rotation like Bomb -> Tumult -> WotL -> MB (to maximize the amount the healer have to move before you try to finish tank off with MB), and if this rotation works you'd just stick to it 100% of the time. There would be nothing random about it, and there's no reason for you to do anything different once you found a rotation that can defeat the players.

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That's not actually entirely true, though it does get at the heart of what I'm trying to say. video game (Chess aside) AI in general does not follow true AI principles, because if it did, it would destroy all challengers. That being said, if you used a min/max tree as you basis, chances are pretty good you actually wouldn't end up with an AI repeating the same actions again and again. The reason for this is because the AI is always reassessing the validity of a given move based on the current environment. If the players try something new to counteract the rotation you mentioned, the min/max tree would fold that into consideration and change it's tactics accordingly.

I suppose my point, since it seems to have a lot of support, is that you can't just make something more challenging, be it by randomizing it, or using more and more complex patterns, because there comes a point where you have gone too far and it is no longer the experience the players came to play. To make it more complex, each player has a different tolerance point.

For fights being so heavily scripted and memorizable, people sure have a lot of problems on Titan.

I think your memory of 1.0 is pretty fuzzy. Ifrit was just as easy to anticipate then and the only main difference with Garuda is the randomization of which of her three "phases" she calls on after Aerial Blast after they've cycled once.

Most games have what's known as a dominating strategy. For example in Chess, the dominating strategy is the no-move move. That is, the AI calculates what happens if the player gets 2 moves in a row and attempts to counter it, knowing that if it was able to counter it, it clearly has found an incredibly strong move and there's no need to think about anything else. If we're building Titan-bot (which has to obey all aggro/targeting/CD rules), the dominating strategy of Titan-bot is 'kill the tank'. Its most potent tool to kill the tank is obviously the Mountain Buster. Gaol is another dominating strategy since it cannot be countered, and if it traps the player's healer it makes your job a lot easier. So Titan-bot's sequence will always look like: Gaol -> ??? -> MB. As it gets more experience, the ??? part will become clearer, and you can be certain it will always open with Gaol and end with Mountain Buster because these are the best opening/ending moves.

Scripted fights are fine as long as you have enough content to move on to the next one and are not forced to repeat it too often. With the additional content coming our way (Crystal Tower and mystery dungeon), that should help to alleviate the repetition.

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Originally Posted by ShadowDan

Scripted fights are fine as long as you have enough content to move on to the next one and are not forced to repeat it too often. With the additional content coming our way (Crystal Tower and mystery dungeon), that should help to alleviate the repetition.

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The fact is it wont, you know it and I know it, it is wishful thinking. Players will do the hm dungeons and find they are not worth the effort and than SR wp or they will find it worth their time and do it. As I have said before some not all coil groups may farm Crystal Tower for the gear but than gain seeing you can skip Crystal Towers and get the gear from myth and coil, the gear from Crystal Towers is practically useless seeing you can do coil in darklight and win.

I'll take a scripted fight anyday over the complete bullshit luck that is non scripted. I seem to remember very well what non scripted was like when playing a game called Mystic Quest....and the golems(I think) around the volcano along with most bosses. There are times they would do nothing but normal moves and times they would do nothing but try and put stone on you, and it was a party wide debuff not just single. Unless you could kill them in one turn or get the auto attack ones you literally had to bank on nothing but pure rng.

That is not fun when a mob does nothing but spams it's ultimate attack, especially when you have no way of either dodging it or being able to mitigate it every time. The moment you take out that possible ultimate spam and put cds on abilities you have gone back to scripted encounters, there is no inbetween.

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Originally Posted by Pellegri

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Non scripted fights are not super hard but it makes the fights not stale, so with this mobs can use what ever they want and still have a set of rules, You can go watch 10 1.0 garuda fights and she will never do the same thing in every vid except do AB when she is @ 40% hp or below.

Like darnus hard mode in 1.0 when BG beat that ppl could not just jump and replicate that fight cause the fight will never be the same for you. In 1.0 If ifrit wanted to he would do eruptions 5 times in a row and u couldn't stun it!