How do certain "multi-hit" skills work?

I have tried Lancer and Pugilist and both of them have some skills that are comprised of more than one actual punch or hit.
Many of those skills require you to be positioned either at the back of the enemy or on his flank.
Which part of those skills counts as a hit, success?
Now, let's say I am trying to move from front of my enemy to his back as I have to use Bootshine and it has to be delivered to my enemy's back in order to critically hit.
I have just activated my bootshine, but since it is comprised of four punches, I am still in a process of delivering this one skill while my enemy has already started to turn.
My first two punches hit him in the back, but my last punches hit his flank and/or front, as he turned so fast.
Did I just hit him critically or not? I know I can see this represented on the screen, but after many tests I still can't figure out if it's the first part or the last part of the skill that counted as a hit thus making it a critical.

It's decided the moment you activate the skill. Damage is always calculated when a skill is initiated, but doesn't get displayed until the animation ends. Positioning is just really difficult to perfect if you are solo, since enemies start turning around immediately you may actually be hitting the wrong side when you think you are hitting the rear or flank. The only way to reliable get into the non-front position on an enemy is to stun them.

Those skills are, in fact, single hit. It is only the animation that shows several hits. As for whether it counts or not, the inevitable lag between you and the server means if it looks like a close call, it likely didn't count.

It's been my experience that you cannot perform an attack to the enemy's flank or back while it is attacking you, unless you quickly maneuver while it is readying an attack, stunned, or slept.

The first position & hit is what counts. Moving away afterwards while animation is still in progress makes no difference.
This should be the same for Pugilist.

Thank you for your help.
But, unfortunately, now I am even more baffled with the game. Don't get me wrong. I think this game has several great features, but combat system ... I don't know. I was actually hoping you guys would say that the entire skill has to land on the required side to hit. That would mean I have a L2P issue.
After I got home yesterday, I deliberately played only for test purposes, and especially Lancer combat is where I felt completely out of touch with what was happening on the screen. Like Estellios said: "you may actually be hitting the wrong side when you think you are hitting the rear or flank". How is that possible?
Besides that constant delay that they implemented into almost everything, combat system looks to be working by the principle "you just press your buttons and something will happen. Just maybe not the exact thing you thought you've done".
Surprising, really.

You misinterpreted what I meant. My point was that your problem is because you are trying to solo something and they are turning as soon as you move out from in front of them and they aren't mid-skill or asleep, stunned, or bound. There's nothing random or anything about it at all.

If you are in a party and the enemy isn't moving around the rear/flank skills work perfectly fine.

Also don't forget that Bootshine's auto-crit not only requires you to be behind the enemy, but also requires you to be in Opo-opo stance which you only get by going through a combo sequence. You can't open raw with Bootshine and get the auto-crit. If you are soloing, use Steel Peak before you run behind it to do Bootshine and you will get the critical bonus easily. It also lasts long enough that you can even work in a flank skill in most cases.

Are you trying to tell me that in this game you are supposed to fight only in group? Isn't that a bit strange? Even for an MMO? What does that mean for a pugilist who is supposed to be everywhere else but in the front?
Imagine all those other games that have "back-stabbing" or similar skills. I can hit someone only when I get behind them, BUT ... I see myself being behind them AND my skill fires off as it's supposed to. What I see IS what I get. Not in this game.
I did some tests on approx. 25-30 enemies that were several levels lower than me so I would stay alive longer. I was only targeting their flank and using only "Heavy thrust" skill for the entire fight. I even moved around them for so long until their flank was (visibly) turned to me before I used my thrust. In the end I calculated that I managed to visually hit them in the flank in at least 80-90% of hits, but buff was reapplied in only about 20-25% of hits.
How to counter that besides playing only in groups?

The problem is, what you see in the game doesn't reflect the actual nature of the game. Take, for example, when you lose connection. Everything appears to be frozen, incapable of moving, and you can attack monsters without being retaliated against. This is a mere illusion, as the server sees YOU as the one who is frozen.

That is perhaps an extreme example, but it serves to illustrate a point: There is a difference between what your client sees, and what the server sees. Movement is handled client-side: If it had to wait for a message from the server before showing you move, there would be a noticeable lag between pressing a button and seeing a result, which would make precise movements difficult. Monster positions, however, are server-side.

For the most part, with a decent connection, this doesn't cause a problem. However, because changing direction is a very quick thing to do for both players and monsters, the monster is able to quickly turn around and face you, even if it doesn't register on your screen. Even if there was no lag whatsoever, it would not change matters, it would still be almost impossible to hit an opponent's flank/back in normal combat.

That said, as was mentioned before you can use any status effect that prevents a monster from turning (Sleep or Stun) or wait until it's occupied with using a skill, since it cannot move while casting. The long and short of it though is that those bonuses ARE intended for use in a party.

You don't NEED to get the position bonuses all the time, especially when soloing. Every class has aspects of their skills that work much better, or only, with a party. Anything that manipulates enmity, requires positioning, or can only be cast on party members, can't really be used while soloing.

I am beginning to understand that now. But what you said is just an excuse for a lousy combat system. Or more correctly it's implementation.
I understand that it's their game and thus the result of their decisions and design. But there is also something called "generally accepted standards". In this case it's a standard of quality. They knew there are going to be differences between server and client side and yet they implemented this system without specifying in tool tips or anywhere else that those skills are supposed to only be used in groups as they are almost ineffective in solo fights. Either they didn't expect the system to have such discrepancies or they did and done it any way. In either case it's bad quality that is the result.
Every other MMO out there has to work with server/client communication and yet they manage to offer you a combat system where "what you see is what you get". Why can't it be in this game as well?

The skills are not "almost ineffective" when solo, they work perfectly well even without the directional bonuses. As for why other games can't work that way, I'm not sure. I haven't played any other MMO that stresses positioning as much as this one does. As I've said before, the delay is quite low, it's just that turning around is a very quick action.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

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Anything that manipulates enmity, requires positioning, or can only be cast on party members, can't really be used while soloing.

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Which would mean that pugilist in solo fight is just standing in one spot, smashing your buttons and occasional movement to the side to avoid attacks? Forget about all those buffs, crits and what not. They are here just for group play.
How is that not "almost ineffective"? When I fight solo I only get to use a part of the skill and do a part of the damage the skill could do. Just because I am solo. Or is it because their implementation of this combat system is so appalling?

I could explain how there is more to combat than just that. But it's become abundantly clear that you've already made your decision and aren't actually looking for answers. Otherwise you'd actually pay attention rather than being an endless stream of hyperbole.

I have to apologize. It was not my intention to insult, be dismissive or anything similar. I do appreciate your desire to help me understand and I thank you for it.
To me, personally, the difference between what I see my char doing and what the actual result of my char's actions are, is because of badly implemented combat system. If I see my char hitting something in the back, I expect this to be the actual result in the fight. Not "Oh, while you were hitting him in the back server decided he is actually already turned towards you".
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Now, why is this my expectation? Because other games that do have skills that require you to be at the certain position regarding your enemy, manage to do exactly that. I hope you can appreciate my expectations since they are based on similar experiences.
Yes, this game's combat system probably does rely on positioning the most of them all, but doesn't that mean they should have made it more robust? Where in the tool-tips, guide or manual does it say that those added benefits of our skills are to be used only in groups? I think that is your own, personal deduction as a result of you adjusting to a badly implemented system.
You say that's not the case and that there is more to combat than that. I will be the first to agree that there are still things in this game, I don't understand or badly comprehend.
So I would like to present a challenge to you madam/sir. Please, help me understand it without using hyperbole yourself. :)

It only makes sense that they would be more useful in groups because you typically have someone holding the enemy's attention so that they do not move around which is slightly important when trying to get to a specific position. This is also a multiplayer game so it stands to reason that stuff will cater towards it. You will still kill things perfectly fine even without getting all your bonuses.

Is it really that hard to understand that some skills will just work better in groups, just like some skills work better solo? Why the hell would I use Medica on Conjurer when soloing, for example. Why would LNC use Keen Flurry or PGL use Featherfoot if they don't have to take damage for extended periods of time when they have a tank?

PGL has a combo that does not require positioning to do full damage, just for crit bonuses (and after the first enemy you can take advantage of it by initiating on the flank or rear on the next enemy) and LNC only requires Heavy Thrust and the initial hit of a combo to land for the bonus to work, which means you can just open with heavy thrust from the flank then Leg Sweep and begin your combo without issue.

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Originally Posted by gamepob

Are you trying to tell me that in this game you are supposed to fight only in group?

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It just means that certain skills work best in groups. A gladiator's skills for drawing aggro are useless when he's the only person fighting a mob, so would have aggro regardless. A conjurer's Raise skill is only usable for raising other people, as he cannot raise himself. A lancer or pugilist's positional skills are sometimes useful solo, but significantly more powerful in groups where there's someone else to hold the mob's attention. These classes all work fine solo, but they work differently solo than they do in a group.

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Originally Posted by gamepob

and yet they implemented this system without specifying in tool tips or anywhere else that those skills are supposed to only be used in groups as they are almost ineffective in solo fights.

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Well, Urthdigger and Estellios have both pointed out occasions where you CAN in fact get the positional bonuses solo. If the mob is busy with a skill induction or if it's been stunned, then you can get behind it just fine. It applies whenever you can maintain the proper position for that skill bonus, so that's what the tooltip tells you.

Soloing as a pugilist is all about counterattacks. And I don't mean passive counterattacks like other games, this is actively countering enemy actions against you. First off, whenever you dodge an attack, you can use Haymaker, which does a heft amount of damage and inflicts slow. This rewards you both for using Featherfoot to dodge attacks, and for paying attention to your hotbar and not just spamming. Also, at 15 and 30 you get DoT attacks, which require paying attention to the enemy's debuffs so you re-apply them when they wear off, and not before.

In addition, as I mentioned before, while an enemy is readying a special attack is a prime time to circle around it and get a directional bonus. In addition, at level 38 you get the ability Steel Peak, which stuns the monster long enough for you to circle around.

These are all things that make solo combat as a pugilist more than just spamming the same three moves over and over. Getting the bonuses doesn't require a party (though that makes it a lot easier), but if you're solo it's all about paying attention to the fight and reacting accordingly.

Thanks to all for your answers. :)
I think it's safe to say that we are simply looking at this from two different perspectives.
The thing is ... I play around this limitation. I still try to circle around, or go through them in order to fully utilize the skill. And like I said in my previous post, I am partially successful in that. And the reason I was only partially successful is the reason I started this thread. I got my answer, thanks to you guys, but that answer raised an issue we are talking about now.
The issue being: why is the inability to fully utilize skills whenever I can, the result of a technically bad design and not the result of my bad play style. You yourselves said that the reason I don't get that flank buff or back crit every time I see myself applying the skill properly, is because server calculates one thing and client the other. Not skill, playstyle or environment limitation.
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What I am trying to say is that what you guys say, is the result of your experiences in adjusting to deficiencies of this system. It's not the result of a game's basic design.
Imagine that not being the case. Imagine that every time I saw myself hitting my enemy in the back I would actually get that hit counted as back hit. Imagine how that would change the game? Your only limitation in using the skill properly every time, would actually be your own skill alone.
I dare you guys to say and think, that such a thing would be worse.
That's where our perspective is different. You guys already play adjusted and focus on other aspects of combat. I am at my start and I simply can't fathom how one of the most important parts of the game works so haphazardly. Maybe I need to play some more before I will adopt "It's as good as it can get" philosophy.

I think it's also safe to say we will not be able to agree on this, no matter how long we discuss it, so thanks again and have a nice day. :)

just to say: it's not that hard to hit from behind with bootshine, or from the flank, even without any special skills or the like. For example bootshine: just run straight through the enemy and then use bootshine. There is a setting to automatically turn you towards the enemy when using a skill and it is activated by default. So you don't even have to turn yourself before using bootshine. Doing it like this you can hit an enemy pretty reliably from behind. you can do the same for flank hits, you don't need to turn towards the enemy before using the skill.

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Originally Posted by Naryoril

just to say: it's not that hard to hit from behind with bootshine, or from the flank, even without any special skills or the like. For example bootshine: just run straight through the enemy and then use bootshine. There is a setting to automatically turn you towards the enemy when using a skill and it is activated by default. So you don't even have to turn yourself before using bootshine. Doing it like this you can hit an enemy pretty reliably from behind. you can do the same for flank hits, you don't need to turn towards the enemy before using the skill.

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I have been doing just that and are somewhat successful in it. The problem is that my success in applying those added benefits in solo fight without CC-ing enemy, mostly depends on luck and not my own skills. Will I be lucky enough to actually get the hit I just made counted as hit or miss?
That's the main point here. Not "Can I do it?".

It depends on how they fix it. The problem is, as an online game, there is always going to be lack somewhere, it's just a question of where they put it. They could make it so the server places the delay so everything is server-side, and you're merely sending commands while the server sends back the data on positioning and such. This would result in a "What you see is what happened", however this would mean a noticeable lag between putting in a command to move, and having that move execute. While this works well in games where you point and click to move, in a game like this where you hold a button down to walk forward, such a system would make moving a lot less precise.

Alternately, they could shift some more of the combat data client-side, so that position data in terms of combat is calculated on your computer, and then the OUTCOME is what's sent to the server. However, this would make the game easier as enemies would essentially be slower to react, especially for people with slower connections. Not to mention it would likely make it easier for cheaters.

In any case, I feel that this is a rather minor issue, considering the lag is minor enough that your skill animation didn't even finish before the monster turned around. Even if they were to fix this issue entirely, it would change nothing. Your chances of landing a position bonus if you circle around the monster would remain the same.

How in the hell would they the remain the same?! How?
Is it so difficult to understand the difference between a system where what you see is what you get and system where what you see is maybe what you get?
I understand that being a moderator on a fan-page may prevent you from being objective, but come on!

On the topic of fixing ... I don't know. One possibility would be to allow client-side actions to have priority when it comes to char actions Vs enemy's movement discrepancy. It would, of course, present other problems. Especially problems with security, which has already happened, but with proper protection it might be possible to do it this way. Or any other fix that helps.

P.S. I was honestly surprised by your words, hence my reaction. I apologize if I've been too harsh.

You're assuming that too much would change the same. If they removed all the lag, it wouldn't result in everything being the same except what you see happening. Removing all the lag would mean the mobs would react faster on your screen. Since that is what the lag is doing. Actions by everyone except you, including enemy movements, appears to happen a fraction of a second later than it does.

As for my position, that has nothing to do with my stance here. SE doesn't pay us a dime, and we call them out whenever they do things we don't agree with. What does influence my stance is a basic knowledge of networking and game design. A little lag is unavoidable, especially with the amount of data being transferred with an MMO. All they can do is try to shift the lag somewhere, and no matter where they put it, there will be problems.

You mentioned that client controls char movement and server controls monster movement. Who controls skill usage?

The player does. The truth is likely a bit more complicated than that (I didn't code the game myself, I'm going off of my own conjectures based on how the game's lag acts, and especially what actions you can still "do" when completely disconnected).

Basically, everything done with an input from the player can be considered "client-side". If you push you Bootshine button, that animation should go off right away. However, these commands need to be sent to the server, be calculated, and sent back before you can see how the monster reacted. Likewise, it's also up to the server to tell you the actions of monsters, NPCs, and players other than yourself.

It should be noted that even for so-called "client-side" actions, the results don't occur until the server receives that data. To use an extreme example, if your internet is disconnected and you hit a monster with Bootshine, the animation WILL play, but because you're disconnected the data never reaches the server, and the action never actually happens.

Do client and server have any kind of time or chronological synchronization? Can client communicate with a server by reporting a time of action, like "action performed at 14:00:15"? Now, I am not necessarily thinking about real time, it could be some sort of server, or game environment time. Is there anything like that?

I've played some MMOs that handle lag a bit differently, in which both mob and character actions are sent from the server to the client before the client displays them. In that case, you do in fact get to see what happened as the server saw it happen, but I don't think you'd get any better success, because the lag delay just occurs at a different point.

In that type of arrangement, you would see yourself as behind or beside an enemy, press the button to select a backstabbing or flanking attack, then while your client is confering with the server regarding your action, you'd see the mob turn to face you. Then you'd get the result of your action back from the server and watch your character attack the mob head-on with what you had hoped would be a backstab. What you see your character do (that head-on attack) matches the result, but it's still no more in line with what you had seen at the time you pressed the button to select your attack than FFXIV's pattern is.

As Urthdigger mentioned, that pattern also causes problems with simple movement. Whenever you're experiencing lag, there will be a delay between pressing a movement button and seeing your character move, so people have a tendency to overshoot how far they intended to run or turn. Players get very grumpy about even relatively minor lag in a game like that.

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Originally Posted by gamepob

Do client and server have any kind of time or chronological synchronization? Can client communicate with a server by reporting a time of action, like "action performed at 14:00:15"? Now, I am not necessarily thinking about real time, it could be some sort of server, or game environment time. Is there anything like that?

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No, and it'd be a little silly if it did because the game is running in real time. Imagine a player is fighting a monster solo, while an onlooker observes the fight. The player suffers a lag spike, and so his command hits the server a few seconds after he sends it, and the server has to retroactively apply his action after the moment has passed. How exactly would this be portrayed to the observer?

On another note, imagine if the player sends his commands during a lag spike, but before he hit it the monster moves out of range, or the player dies. According to the player's screen, he would have hit the monster. According to the server, the player was incapable at the time. How would this be resolved.

And finally, consider that you're coming up with a complicated system to solve... what, 1/10th a second's worth of lag? Game systems aren't perfect, and if they were worked on until they were, the games would never wind up released.

I understand the problem is more complex than it appears, but right now it doesn't feel like the game runs in real time. I feels like my char is mearly plastered onto the word and he has to guess what will happen. He has to be reactive instead of proactive.
They've put .3 sec of constant delay. That is something that is "easily" calculated and especially important, as a constant, the client and server can both handle it with the same amount of accuracy.
The synchronization I mentioned was meant for such constant delay. Not spikes or disconnects as they are random and rare occurrences.
It would solve solo fights, but would present a problem in group fights. Thanks for your help in understanding that. :)
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After some further thoughts yesterday, I realized I may have such a problem with these delays, because I find combat in FF pretty tedious and often boring and these kind of added benefits (buffs, crits, ...) are the frosting on the cake that actually makes me like the cake itself. Maybe this is just not the game for me, as I am having such problems with something few others are bothered about.