Damage / Buff calculations based on animation is problematic.

I want to begin by stating that I know SE's stance on this as they have been very blunt about it in the past, however as stubborn as a person I am, I wish to raise a pressing issue as to why this is a big problem.

This thread is simply about damage or buffs that do not take effect until after the animation has completed. My first example I am going to bring up is the glaringly obvious ones and in my opinion some of the more crucial ones - PLD..



PLD

Using Hallowed Ground as an example, there are countless times where I have dropped to 2k HP and worried if I was going to get a heal or not, used Hallowed Ground instantly, and still died.

On top of this, all of PLD's defensive skills work in a similar fashion. This makes reaction/twitch tanking impossible, and you have to simply rely on prediction. This makes tanking mechanics even more boring then they already are for a PLD.

Finally this goes for both WAR and PLD, or in fact any interrupt skill. Instead of the true "instant" description, the interrupt is actually scaled on the duration of the animation. This means that the stun is actually about 1 second (give or take) after you hit the button, and this is far from "instant". Having to allow for both latency and the animation delay often means that the line between interrupting a fast casting spell, and not interrupting it is extremely small. It is once again, less about twitch/reaction mechanics and more about prediction - which in turn makes the mechanic dull.

BLM

Now it's arguable that since BLM is pretty much the strongest ranged DPS class at the moment, that they don't really need a "buff", and what I am going to mention here will indeed appear to be a "buff" but hear me out.

Firestarter procs.

This one is probably self explanatory to any BLM out there.. Currently the problem is this-
Depending on the distance you are between the enemy mob, after successively casting Fire 1, the animation overflows the GCD (as the little fireball has to hit the mob) before a Firestarter proc actually shows on your screen. Meanwhile you are already 1/4 of the way through your next Fire 1.

So a BLM has 2 options. To continue casting that Fire 1 and potentially waste a Firestarter proc (if one were to proc on the next Fire), or interrupt the cast and burn the proc, then go back to Fire 1.

Both options mean a loss on damage.

In addition to this, often because of the animation - Swiftcast fails to take effect if you cast immediately after using the skill. This reduces the point of Swiftcast, as you have to interrupt the cast to allow Swiftcast to take effect on the spell. Similar story for Surecast but to be honest, that skill is more useful for healers anyway.

Healers

This one is pretty obvious. Cures are not instant, they go off after the animation is displayed, therefore a healer has to allow for the time it takes to play the animation + cast time + GCD.

Similar story with Stoneskin... If you know a big attack is coming and the tank is at full HP - you have to also allow a 1-2 second buffer after casting the spell for the buff to actually take effect.. So this means you have to begin casting about 5 seconds before the tank gets hit.

Summary

Basically all of this attributes to a sense of lag and clunkyness in overall gameplay. While it does appear that this game is more about looks then it is gameplay, adjusting abilities at the least to apply the buff the instant the cool down goes off would improve the feeling of response, and make the game feel less delayed.

Myself, and I am sure many others can understand weaponskills and other non crucial abilities based on this mechanic where the damage is displayed & dealt after the fireball hits the target, or the polearm stabs them. However in terms of how the gameplay feels - currently it feels slow and laggy.

Simply pushing the buffs / debuffs to the start of the animation would improve the overall feel of gameplay by a huge amount and would reduce a lot of the complaints on game lag.

It feels like you guys tried to do a reaction/twitch style mechanic, but only went half way - and picked aesthetics over the feeling of a fluid battle system. For the most part, the game "looks" nice, but certainly doesn't "feel" nice.

I don't really mind this, it's just a design decision, so the animation actually means something.
Sure in all(?) other games a instant ability is really instant, but it doesn't mean it's the 'correct' game design. Actually it's just a 'lazy' game design because designer don't need to worry about animation duration, where SE designer need to take that into consideration.

GIT GUD and NOTHING IS WRONG THIS GAME IS PERFECT! GAWD! WUTS WRONG WIT U?

Just kidding lol! Yeah I can attest to the BLM fire starter proc. it's better to ride out your cast and hit the proc after, rather than cancel; however, this should not even be an issue as the proc, IMO, should be based off of the cast not the hit. Basically saying what you did in a nutshell. That's not really an animation thing though I don't think.

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Originally Posted by Arcaloid

snip.

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The argument is aesthetics vs. gameplay.

Nothing "lazy" about it.. It's about priorities..

Do you want a responsive, fluid gameplay - or a pretty one?

On top of this, pushing calculations at the start of the animations for most things do not actually effect aesthetics to begin with. For example swiftcast - does it really matter if the little orb things connect with your player in the animation before the buff is applied? Nope.

What matters is not having to wait for the entirety of the animation, just to actually gain the benefit.

Same story with Cure... Does the little sparkly powder actually have to spray out and land on the target before giving them HP? No. Does it truly make the game "prettier"? Not really (subjective of course). Does it make the game feel unresponsive and laggy? Definitely.

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Originally Posted by Pinworms

GIT GUD and NOTHING IS WRONG THIS GAME IS PERFECT! GAWD! WUTS WRONG WIT U?

Just kidding lol! Yeah I can attest to the BLM fire starter proc. it's better to ride out your cast and hit the proc after, rather than cancel; however, this should not even be an issue as the proc, IMO, should be based off of the cast not the hit. Basically saying what you did in a nutshell. That's not really an animation thing though I don't think.

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Well that's just it, the firestarter proc is based off the animation of Fire.

You will notice it actually procs when the little fireball from Fire 1 lands on the target (graphically). In which case you are already into your next Fire (as you mentioned).

As you said - it should be based entirely off the cast. Once the cast is successful (ie, the cast bar hits 100%) then it determines whether or not Firestarter procs or not.

This just makes the game feel like the UI is constantly behind schedule.

I have ever missed a fire starter proc. not sure some people freak out over this. I just finish the cast and then use fire 3. It was worked every time and never wasted a proc. the proc does have a time limit though and if you don't notice it maybe that is how you are missing the proc.

I have noticed this myself.

As SCH - Adlo/Succor/Sacred Soil take time to properly come into effect even when shown.

As BLM - Firestarter procs. As you said have to wait for Fire to reach it.

Although you can claw a little back with BLM by: Having Umbral Ice III up, you can Fire III to get Astral Fire III and you can still cast Fire I quickly as if you had Umbral Ice III, even though you've switched to fire and you'll still do the increased Fire I damage. (And at the reduced mana cost!)

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Originally Posted by Feidam

I have ever missed a fire starter proc. not sure some people freak out over this. I just finish the cast and then use fire 3. It was worked every time and never wasted a proc. the proc does have a time limit though and if you don't notice it maybe that is how you are missing the proc.

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Firestarter can proc on the next Fire (and happens often) - ie you are wasting a proc.

For example:
Cast Fire
While starting next Fire, Firestarter procs.
Finish casting Fire and Firestarter procs on this one too..

ie you waste the first proc if you decide to finish the 2nd Fire cast.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Instead of the true "instant" description, the interrupt is actually scaled on the duration of the animation.

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The description actually says that the "cast time" is instant, which it is.

SE could change all these abilities to be actually instant (Aero surely feels like it hits instantly if I'm not mistaken), but its also true that the playerbase could just accept how these abilities work in the game instead of demanding that they be changed.

I also disagree with saying that the current system is "unresponsive". Unresponsive would be you using an ability and it only starting a few seconds later.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

The description actually says that the "cast time" is instant, which it is.

SE could change all these abilities to be actually instant (Aero surely feels like it hits instantly if I'm not mistaken), but its also true that the playerbase could just accept how these abilities work in the game instead of demanding that they be changed.

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Aero feels instant because there is no wind up animation / Aero doesn't have to travel through the air to land on the target. It just hits the target immediately. The animation is also extremely short. It is also an insignificant issue for a spell like Aero.. The issues are on a completely different level when you are talking about mitigation skills on PLD (which could mean life or death) as one small example.

Asking players to accept it, is asking us to accept poor design and response time..

There are 2 potential cases..
1. SE don't know how to fix it.
2. It's a design choice.

Both are terrible.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

I also disagree with saying that the current system is "unresponsive". Unresponsive would be you using an ability and it only starting a few seconds later.

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Well this can also happen.
Along with complete animation cancelations.
Use a skill, half the animation is displayed, half of the GCD completes, then you find out that the skill didn't actually go off. This happens quite frequently with Shield Lob.
So yes, often skills are also unresponsive, which is another glaring issue entirely.

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Originally Posted by Altena

The argument is aesthetics vs. gameplay.

Do you want a responsive, fluid gameplay - or a pretty one?

.

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It's responsive to the animation, not the casting timer.

It's like saying you want the cup of water to be full once you turn on the faucet, but the action of turning on the faucet does not cause the water to automatically become full it's the motion of the water entering the cup that fills it with water.

In the same sense it's not the casting time that dictates the action takes place but the animation of the action that causes it to take effect.

Like poison, most are not instantaneous, they take time to full influence the body, you aren't boned the moment it enters your system only as time progresses and it moves throughout your body. The animations work in the same way. you aren't healed until the effects of the heal go off, not just the incantation, so you have to take that into account when you use those abilities.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Asking players to accept it, is asking us to accept poor design and response time..

There are 2 potential cases..
1. SE don't know how to fix it.
2. It's a design choice.

Both are terrible.

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Sorry but "you not liking something" isn't the same thing as "poor design".

People need to adapt to the game system instead of demanding that the game system be changed to suit their personal tastes.

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Originally Posted by Altena

Well this can also happen.
Along with complete animation cancelations.
Use a skill, half the animation is displayed, half of the GCD completes, then you find out that the skill didn't actually go off. This happens quite frequently with Shield Lob.
So yes, often skills are also unresponsive, which is another glaring issue entirely.

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If this is happening frequently to you I suggest you check your internet connection. I only get this when I'm lagging. And no, not all lag is due to SE's servers.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with your original complaint, you're just going off on a tangent to support your "unresponsive" claim.

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Originally Posted by Airget

dat immersion

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So important when it comes to gameplay and mechanics..

While yes it takes time to tip a cup upside down, and the water to pour out of it - however when it comes to twitch mechanics such as popping a defensive ability a split second before you're about to get hit - it's no longer about reaction, and moves into prediction / guessing.

Content would be a lot more interesting if you had to rely on twitch reaction rather then memorizing a set rotation of skills.

They attempted to do a hybrid of both, which in turn leads to poor design.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

If this is happening frequently to you I suggest you check your internet connection. I only get this when I'm lagging. And no, not all lag is due to SE's servers.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with your original complaint, you're just going off on a tangent to support your "unresponsive" claim.

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My internet connection is fine. 95Mbps down/2.5Mbps up, with 250 ping due to geographical location (which is more then sufficient). Only get the occasional spike during instances after a myth reset.

This is also tied to the problem I have mentioned in the OP.
- If the calculations were done once the key had been pressed, then the skill would complete.

On top of this (and this is not due to lag), there are often skills that get "eaten" by the server. eg; I pop Fight or Flight or Convalesence, followed by a GCD skill.
The CD of the ability goes off, yet the buff is not applied.

This is presumably due to clipping the end of the animation, and the buff failing to be responsive.

On a final note, I was unaware that your posts were about semantics.. So I will politely ignore them.

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Originally Posted by Gilthas

Sorry but "you not liking something" isn't the same thing as "poor design".

People need to adapt to the game system instead of demanding that the game system be changed to suit their personal tastes.

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For some skills this may be the case but skills like interrupts and defensive cooldowns are designed to be used in a reactive fashion and the animation delay on such skills basically defeats the purpose of them, especially once latency is factored into the equation. As it is at the moment there are situations where players have to try and time their reactive skills to be used BEFORE there is actually anything to react to. That's just bad design as far as I'm concerned.

Take a look at silences for example, there's a reason why BRDs are generally the most preferred choice here and it's not just because they have the most readily accessible silence. BRD skills are nearly all instant and most have very minimal animation delay, their silence included. Why do other jobs even have silence if the BRD one is simply flatout better due to the animation?

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Originally Posted by Altena

Firestarter can proc on the next Fire (and happens often) - ie you are wasting a proc.

For example:
Cast Fire
While starting next Fire, Firestarter procs.
Finish casting Fire and Firestarter procs on this one too..

ie you waste the first proc if you decide to finish the 2nd Fire cast.

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Honestly, IMO, that is splitting hairs because the rng just happened to give another proc. the few times I've seen that happen doesn't warrant an overhaul of the system. I'm all for the game being responsive but this IMO really is a non issue. In my experience the vast majority of fire stater procs are not back to back.

Omg the hollowed ground thing is the bane of my existence. I checked when the invincible actually happens. It not when the animation ends or when the buff goes on the status bar, it starts at the 8 second mark. That is VERY annoying. And it needs to fixed.

EDIT The worst part is you can activate it and die and it goes on cd -.-

Tl;dr:

Get used to it - Yoshi said it's "less stressful" gameplay.

I know when I first started playing I thought I was lagging when I wasn't. I thought I was casting when I wasn't. It boiled down to how the game handles cast times. I'd be thinking to myself - my cast bar is halfway done and the previous fire ball just hit...that's weird. Or the - I can't cast until my fireball hits idea from other games and this one being different.

Let's just say I was fubar my first 20 levels figuring out casting, the bar, the animations, and when I can cast again. It does feel slow to me, but I played DCUO a very long time...so that might be why. I also had to move my cast bar from its original spot to the bottom right center so I could actually see it when I was playing. It blends into the game extremely easy.

Hate to shine that white armor, but it's totally ok if you wait to see if your Fireball will proc. Or start casting heal before the tank takes damage. Or use invincible a little earlier.

Dull would it be if we didn't have to plan ahead for anything. Almost as dull as.... WoW.

I don't know if I would call it less stressful when I hit lustrate and I don't see the hp rising cause of the animation. So I end up hitting lustrate one or two more times just to make sure the tank gets healed after a big hit and end up wasting stacks.