[dev1032] Class uniqueness or character customization?

Just curious what the general opinion is on these two concepts?

From the recent tidbits of information, it seems the developers are working to make each class its own specialization.

When I first started following news of XIV prior to it's release, the ability to mix and match abilities to create my own specialized character within a Final Fantasy universe was incredibly enticing.

Though, things didn't exactly pan out as I had imagined, I thought the horizontal leveling system was a success within the game. It was neat to me that you could take, for example, two Lancers and never have them be the same. With the correct combination of cross-class abilities, on could be a DD power house and never get hate like a Thief in XI, while the other could focus on using abilities that debilitate the foe.

I guess my only concern with "class uniqueness" is that classes will fall into socially expected rolls and will lose some of that openness.

I believe that the ability to make your character it's own class can be made purposeful with the addition of strategy-based content. Currently, in my experience, players don't seem to bother too much with carving out a niche for their character because there's just no need for it due to the lack of that sort of content.

What would you all rather see? Defined rolls for each class through changing and addition of abilities, strategy-based content that would give reason to define your own character or a combination of both?

I think classes are fine, Job Titles to go ontop of them would be awesome, instead of replacing class name implement titles that augment and modify current skills and give bonuses for equipping the jobs tenant skills.

White Mage job title gains bonuses for equipping White Magic, etc.

The character specialization is a matter of immersion for me. I hated the "social roles" of FFXI jobs, but at the same time the current FFXIV system is good only on paper. It is amazing and interesting to be able to use any class ability once you acquired it, but each class lacks its own "true" characteristic abilities.

Simply said, i think each class must have its unique abilities. Lancers should get a skill like jump, for instance. The issue with this is that "Lancer" isn't a Dragoon. It's a generic name for someone using a lance. How can you make a class with a generic name less generic? The only option i see is returning to traditional FF jobs, but this won't happen.

FFXIV wasnt designed to have class uniqueness in the FFXI way. We will probably get some bonuses to certain battle strategies with each job, but i think that won't bring class uniqueness back and will just harm customization... unless i am underestimating the devs and they are going to change the classes more radically.

What will help with class uniqueness is enforcing the Armory System. The Armory System basically states when you use Weapon "A", you are Class "X". So why allow characters who are not currently Class "X" to use weaponskills that belong to Weapon "A"? Restricting weaponskills (and only weaponskills) to players who are actually using that weapon will go along way to enforcing class uniqueness, I think. Abilities, traits, and spells should remain unrestricted and cross-classable, though.

Right now FFXIV class is so broken it's hillarious. For NM all you need are three classes.... that's tank, archer, and thm... because archer damage is out rageous if you get enough weapon skills archer deals more damage with lancer/pug/mrd weapons skill then lancer/pug/mrd can do at their 100% affinity. It doesn't mean archer needs to be nerfed, it just means that other class needs their own role.... like pug(monk) ability to becoming off tank and what not. Lancer is the only melee class with some uniqueness due to speed surge/life surge ability.

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Originally Posted by Sorel

What will help with class uniqueness is enforcing the Armory System. The Armory System basically states when you use Weapon "A", you are Class "X". So why allow characters who are not currently Class "X" to use weaponskills that belong to Weapon "A"? Restricting weaponskills (and only weaponskills) to players who are actually using that weapon will go along way to enforcing class uniqueness, I think. Abilities, traits, and spells should remain unrestricted and cross-classable, though.

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But I like my "dirty fighting monk", Sorel! :(

there's plenty differentiation in the current class system.

People just see something completely different from the same old crap and automatically assume it's "wrong".

Try tanking anything sizable with a clothie if you can. Try main healing on a marauder. Try dealing damage with a gladiator. Lemme know how well you do.

Of course skills can be ADDED on top of what we have to increase characterization further, but the armory system is a very good base. The ones that want it removed (funny, since it's the whole base of the game, removing it means having to redo the whole game) should go play wow or some other game that fits their playstyle better.

You know, not all MMORPGs need to be the same.

Uniqueness and customization are for people who don't know how to play MMOs.

Optimal set ups will be found and developed for each class no matter what. If you don't use said optimal set up/gear then you're not good.

In my opinion, every DD is exactly the same. If your WS has a different name, it doesn't matter. You do the same damage and the attack animations all look alike. Healers just heal. They aren't allowed to do anything else if they want to be useful.

That means we need class uniqueness. PGL is supposed to be the Evasion job, yet at rank 50, I have 420 DEF and only 150 EVA. That isn't right. THM is supposed to manipulate good and evil. All it does is cure. Shouldn't it give bonuses and such to itself or others if they are injured? Those two examples just run with the job's themes. That's all SE has to work on.

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Originally Posted by Visch

Uniqueness and customization are for people who don't know how to play MMOs.

Optimal set ups will be found and developed for each class no matter what. If you don't use said optimal set up/gear then you're not good.

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LOL. Yeahssure. Because playing with a cookie cutter spec found in a forum is SO pro :rolleyes:

The more options and possibilities are available, the more viable combinations can be found. It's simple logic.

I agree with the OP completely on this. The reason class rolls have not been fully defined is the lack of challenging content. The Armory System is a wonderful idea and provides class versatility never before available to a MMO. The example of two different ways to spec a Lancer says it all, all DD or support debuffer. I am for continued "tweeking" of classes and the additions of maybe unique abilities. For instance, add a few additional class specific abilities like Jump.

As to Visch's comments, are you serious? You would rather have a game where everyone spec's the same way, wears the same gear and runs the same dungeon over and over? Have you looked into WoW?

Brainstorming!


Armory System
-It's nice to have my own character with abilities I've earned to create a character that can do whatever I want.

-COUNTERPOINT This system goes WAY too far with this though. There's practically no uniqueness to any class aside from the weapon you're using and some HP/MP stuff. Yay, I can dress my mage up in heavy plate armor....Why? Who knows?

--Try this--Make a lot of the abilities classes unlock as they level specific to that class. Keep the Abilites/Traits that you unlock with Guild Points open to all jobs. That way, there's some crossover that you have earned....but the classes keep most of the uniqueness. People will have pride in their' main class AND have the effort show on other classes.

And while they're at it....how about adding more things to get with Guild points? Gear for that class that's unique maybe? Or maybe some abilities that don't borderline on the silly and retarded? Overkill in choices would be great even! I say....give the guilds a bigger role! Let them issue their' own guildleves....getting a quest every 20+10 class levels makes the guilds seem weak and static. Why not have Guild events? Events where people could compete to make the best item....or time trials for some battle....or large-scale scavenger hunts! This can earn Guild Points towards uber abilites or something!

So, in summary....
Make the abilities classes earn as they level specific to that class for the most part.
Make Guild Mark bought abilities and traits usable by all classes (or maybe unlock level-abilities for other classes this way!)
Add a LOT more Guild Mark buyable things. (Abilities, traits, Boosts, Armor and Accessories, CSA (Class Specific Armor))
Guild boosts maybe? For example; A trinket that a GLA uses that keeps emnity raised or something.


~Meenk

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Originally Posted by Akillius

I agree with the OP completely on this. The reason class rolls have not been fully defined is the lack of challenging content.

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By the way, yes, I agree with this too. Mobs in Final Fantasy XIV are EASY. I don't think I encountered one that challenged me.

It's not classes that need to be rebalanced (mostly at least, I'm all for implementing a few, class-defining, class-restricted abilities), but monsters.

Give monsters an appropriate level of challenge, and you'll suddenly see people sticking to the right roles (casters can't tank if they get bishotted because they don't wear heavy armor like in every other MMORPG, tanks/melee can't main heal if their gimped/non group heals can't keep up with the damage over time and so forth), or going back to the bind, learning the lesson the hard way.

Challenging group content is the way to define roles, not removing any kind of versatility and uniqueness from the game.

I also think the lack of gear requirements plays a huge role in fading the line between classes and levels.

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Originally Posted by Meenkieblade

-COUNTERPOINT This system goes WAY too far with this though. There's practically no uniqueness to any class aside from the weapon you're using and some HP/MP stuff. Yay, I can dress my mage up in heavy plate armor....Why? Who knows?

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The counterpoint is flawed by the environment in which it's been experimented. Excessively easy mobs make the differences less evident.

You can dress your mage up in heavy armor, but he will receive much less protection from that armor than someone with the preferred class. If your mage dressed in heavy armor can tank effectively, the problem isn't that he can wear heavy armor, but the fact that the mob doesn't hit hard enough (or that the difference in bonuses between favored classes and non-favored classes isn't high enough)
Ultimately, you can dress your mage in heavy plate armor, because your mage has a body, and heavy plate armor tends to fit a body (I dabble with heavy armor, and I still haven't encountered any that tells me "NO! You're not fit to wear me! Begone!"). He isn't necesssarily proficent at using it though, and it's appropriate that the protection he'll receive from it will be limited.

Other differences are rather evident. Mages can't use heavy shields, resulting in a much reduced protection from them (barely justifying the stamina used for guard just when they solo).

Non casters can't use any AOE effect with spells, and ultimately the effect of every single ability not belonging to the equipped class is limited by class affinity.

So yeah, the differences ARE noticeable, and would be much more noticeable when experimented in an environment that challenges them to the limit.

The only real problem is that the FFXIV environment, at the moment, does not challenge the player and his abilities to the limit. It doesn't even get near to that.

Hell, I can easily tank anything my group throws at me effectively with one hand on the joypad and the other hand holding the coffee cup, as I watch anime on the second PC. And I'm sure I'm not the only one.

This means that even seriously gimped abilities/defence/attack are still sufficent to fullfill a main role.

Add the challenge, and the abilities will become sufficent only for limited support/soloing, and there you have your class uniqueness. Without the hassle of removing any kind of class flexibility (that many enjoy) from the game.

i like what you are saying to a point abriael. yes i agree, that mobs DO need to be a bit harder. BUT by saying well a mage shouldn't be able to tank, isn't that in some ways forcing that player back into the role of debuff nuke and cure spam? which then defeats the purpose of customization to begin with? personally, i like my melee mage. i played a rdm for years and all that resulted me in as a party member was cure spam and buff galore. TOTALLY negating the fact that my rdm COULD carry a sword and nuking on rdm was OUT OF THE QUESTION until recently!