I have been researching and looking around at different gear sets and what not. Now what I noticed is that beside the Gal Blog, and the different armors from the myth stone purchase. All of the gear, including all the allagan, can double for the lancer.
My question is, how effective would it be to be just a lancer at lvl 50 will full allagan. Another possibility could be a mix of allagan, phil stone armor, and myth stone accesories, cause the rings and stuff like that work for all classes.
The point of this would be to not use jumps, and use those extra five skills for things the DRG cant get like:
Straight shot = an attack that increase crit by 10% for 20s
Raging strikes = increase dmg by 20% for 20s
Venomous bite = Another DOT
Virus (who knew) = reduce targets STR, DEX by 15% for 10s
Eye for an Eye = magic barrier for 30s that has 20% chance to reduce enemies dmg by 10% for 20s
*these skills and the others you can get do not get trait enhancements, so the cool-down it pretty long for most of them*
Dragoon vs Lancer, is there a secret benefit?
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10-30-2013, 05:43 PMLbdizzleDragoon vs Lancer, is there a secret benefit?
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10-30-2013, 05:44 PMLbdizzlecont.
those are the 5 I looked at the most but all the others which I won't describe are:
physick, hawks eye, quelling strikes (good one), cure, protect, raise (awesome), stoneskin, savage blade, flash, convalescence (good one), provoke, awareness (might be good), surecast, and swiftcast
Now take some of the skills from the PUG, and the MRD that are useful, and couple them with some stated above. One could either have a short time where you are doing a lot of crits, or have increased crits for a long time, most if not all are insta-cast off the GCD. This is not the only option, there are many skills that can be used in different circumstances.
The DRG is very powerful; however, I was playing with the idea that without jumps, a LNC could be just as or even more powerful. I would test this out, but I currently have the Gal Blog +1 sooo that is out of the question till coil T5, which is a long ways away for me. -
10-30-2013, 05:44 PMLbdizzlecont 2
Let me know what you guys think about this, and if anyone can do some dps checks, or just do anything as a LNC lvl 50 Allagan vs DRG lvl 50 Allagan. The issue with this is that you need the Allagan spear which is difficult to attain, and until then you must be a DRG.
P.S. If you are on Phoenix server hit me up always looking for peeps to do coil or anything with :p -
10-30-2013, 05:45 PMaswedishtiger
I like where your heads at but Maurader is more viable doing this over Lancer over the ridiculous damage AND tanking you can do.
My friends and I PLD/MRD/BRD/WHM WP and AK all the time with ridiculous amounts of success and damage
Although I see nothing wrong with your logic I just think you get more bang for your buck in MRD -
10-30-2013, 05:56 PMLbdizzle
I see what your saying, MRD could benefit more by having all the stated skill available. I would say that this is an option for those who want to just hold a lance. I personally got this game to be a DRG, but seeing how that is the same as a LNC, and the jumps kinda suck. I'm just trying to maximize this class.
About the MRD though, don't they really need to become WARs for the tanking ability? If they just stay MRD then they lose out on wrath and the benefits from those skills. If a MRD did this, they would still have to join dungeons as a tank, but it would seem they would have major issues holding aggro, unless they were geared to the teeth, like full Allagan or Allagan with Hero accessories. That's just my thought, I am currently only a 20 MRD looking to become a WAR. T.T -
10-30-2013, 06:02 PMaswedishtigerWell of course for tanking you need dat defiance etc but your OP leads me to believe you like versatility and variety so if your speed running 1 tank snatch 2 sets of mobs WHM/BRD burn it down with AOE and MRD runs ahead, burns all CDs and starts on second set of mobs. PLD/WHM/BRD approach, WHM pops benediction to keep him/her up and from overpower, maim spam with buffs up group 2 probably already almost dead. See where I'm goin with this? that MRD has the utility of dealing lots of damage while absorbing a good bit of damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lbdizzle
How do you plan to play WAR? I'm curious because smart players like you that theorize this kinda stuff tend to be really awesome end game. -
10-30-2013, 06:20 PMGamemakoThe big sticking point is the weapon level. Unless you somehow get your hands on a Twintania drop, you're invariably hurting yourself. That said, DRG will outdamage LNC even after all cross-class abilities are accounted (only Raging Strikes is actually worth counting). You're going to have considerably lower DPS with LNC after you account for the lower weapon level. You have a bunch of traited notes in your work here as well. Traits do not carry over -- Raging Strikes has a 180s cooldown, Virus only affects STR and DEX, Mantra is 5% instead of 20% boost (lol), et cetera.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lbdizzle
The only advantage you'd have on LNC, really, are cross-class debuff abilities like Virus, and I just don't think those are really good enough to justify the loss. LNC isn't much of a tank, and even ilvl90 Allagan gear has lower defensive stats than ilvl46 Tortoiseshell. No, really, that set is the very highest DEF/MDEF a DRG can ever get -- 126/126 for HQ Tortoiseshell chest versus 110/62 for ilvl90 stuff.
MRD is a bit of a special case in that it can stack out a bunch of multiplicative bonuses to deal massive burst damage. It has one of the few pure damage buffs that is not cross-class, and unlike GLA, MRD has the native abilities to do decent DPS. It's not a the greatest DPS in total, but it's actually pretty solid all told. You might actively see a bunch of MRD running around at endgame if it weren't for the effective restriction to ilvl70 weaponry. Hell, with 2.1, you may see it happen anyway.
//EDIT:
Everything WAR does is related to Defiance. Defiance reduces damage by 25%, meaning you won't be using it when you want to deal damage. The point of using MRD is to have a super-durable DPS -- you aren't really tanking with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lbdizzle
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10-30-2013, 06:34 PMLbdizzleThank you for the compliment!! That quote is precisely what I would like in a class. I am picking up WAR for two reasons. I wanna be able to take a hit and dish out massive dmg, and be an important role in the dungeon. The problem I have with DRG is, I do crazy dmg, but I am pretty much a secondary role that can be replaced by many other classes. Just like in your example, you talk about MRD/WHM/BRD, or PLD/WHM/BRD (if i'm correct in assuming these are separate groups), any other dps can go in that load up (even though a BLM would fit better). Good WARs who can keep agro, are somewhat hard to find, at least on my server. I am just in the beginning stages of learning to tank, and lvling my MRD.Quote:
Originally Posted by aswedishtiger
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10-30-2013, 06:34 PMLbdizzle
PLD is IMO the simpler tanking class, so I strayed away from that, due to me playing DRG, the simpler dps IMO. WAR is more complicated has loads of health, to take hits, and deals great dmg, but this post has pushed me to want to make a MRD, and just get titan weapon and full DL. Of course till Allagan.
That will take a long time, and until then, i'm just theorizing how to make my DRG, or LNC, the best it can be.
My friend and I were talking about this and he brought up the boost one gets with taking on the soul crystal. My question is, would this be important? Or would the exchange of gaining the extra crit and dmg buffs outweigh the boost. If someone could get the exact numbers on the benefit from switching from LNC to DRG, that would help greatly. -
10-30-2013, 06:55 PMLbdizzleAhh thank you for letting me know that. When gathering these definitions I was not aware that the traits were included I will edit that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
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10-30-2013, 06:57 PMLbdizzleThe point in this section would stop me from putting a LNC in coil. I would not be looking to create a LNC that was a tank. I would want to maximize the dps, I am guessing that would be from the Twintania drop that you mentioned (which I have no clue what that is or how I would try to get it). My point is that, with all the crit help from abilities off GCD, I was theorizing with max gear (allagan, or allagan hero mix) that they could out or match the dps of a DRG. If the DRG will be better with max gear then what about sacrificing the DEF/MDEF for a specialized set, say like max skill speed? With the skill speed maxed and the extra crit abilities could a LNC stand a chance? not in coil, but for like a farming AK/WP or other dungeons. If not in the skill speed set, what about a crit set? Then the LNC could have many different skills beside the crit ones, just throwing thoughts out of my head at the situation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
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10-30-2013, 06:59 PMLbdizzleMy point on this is that as a MRD you still have to que up as a tank. The only way around that would be to have another PAL or WAR/MRD and make your own party. I have many friends but can't always get a group and need to pub que sometimes; however I like the idea, and that is what I will be going for, durable dps, but I would rather be the main tank who does the dps. If a MRD is not the main tank, why not just get a MNK or DRG?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
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10-30-2013, 08:25 PMxyaie
from the rotation reborn thread
btw (ill admit ive only read a bit of this thread) there is a "hidden" benefit of 20 str for equipping the dragoon soul
Quote:
Quote Originally Posted by EasymodeX View Post
For most rotations the potency-per-second actually dropped by using Straight Shot, because the buff is actually pretty weak, the attack itself is weak (140, so you need to gain over 60 potency from the buff to match your filler to break even), and using it caused a loss of uptime of other buffs (like Heavy Thrust).
Even if we assume the same PPS for the "LNC" (+SS) and "DRG" rotations, take the next step:
A LNC with 450 STR has a potency coefficient of 126.0. A DRG with 470 has a coefficient of 130.6. That's roughly a 3.7% increase in damage from the STR. Ref: http://valk.dancing-mad.com/?page_id=179
The Raging Strikes buff is up for 20/180 = 11% of the time, and adds 20% damage. That's +2.222% average damage.
DRG STR bonus > Raging Strikes (although Raging Strikes is still good for burst damage situations)
Straight Shot is a wash at best (or a DPS loss at worst).
The net result is that the DPS of a DRG is going to be ahead 0-2% of the DPS of a LNC using straight shot ... without counting jumps. Jumps aren't the best DPS increasers in the world, but they do increase DPS.
Edit: Jumps add in the general ballpark of 4% total damage.
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10-30-2013, 10:34 PMAratak
Depending on how buffs interact with each other in this game, there might be some gain you get from Raging Strikes and possibly also Straight Shot (as initial attack for a burstphase).
As DRG it is beneficial to use a damagebuff in conjunction with the piercing resistance debuff. Assuming both buffs increase damage by an factor 1.1 you would get 1.21 (>1.2) when using both buffs combined.
The LNC would be able to set up some crazy burstphases with overlapping buffs, assuming they are all 'compatible' in the way described. Of course skillspeed could really shine in those phases since the applications of buffs (GCD and offGCD) come in a higher frequenzy and an additional attack could fit in the timewindow.
Stealing aggro while not having the backward jump might get problematic however. Blood Bath, defensive CD and a short 'break' using Physique might help then.
On another note:
Having access to 4 different DOT attacks opens up many possible rotations a LNC could come up with. -
10-30-2013, 10:46 PMEasymodeX
The geometric gains from Raging Strikes synergizing with other buffs could possibly optimistically make up ~1-2% total damage.
Jumps and gear issues > even-ish dps. -
10-30-2013, 11:46 PMLbdizzleTo this I say grab Quelling strikesQuote:
Originally Posted by Aratak
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10-31-2013, 03:52 AMThemisI will just add that this isn't correct. I'm guessing you took the tooltip from XIVDB which uses the text that is shown for a Lv50 Archer. In the Lv50 Archer's case, Venomous Bite (and also Windbite) can (50% chance) reset the recast of Bloodletter when either one crits. Bloodletter, unfortunately, is exclusive to Archer, meaning that only Archer gets this benefit. Venomous Bite is simply a DoT for Lancer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lbdizzle
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10-31-2013, 04:31 AMNefGPQuote:
Originally Posted by aswedishtiger
Yeah MRD is pretty beefy since it retains access to Raging Strikes and Straight Shot, which puts damage through the roof. I imagine that MRD will also end up being the base class for DRK and take further advantage of this. -
10-31-2013, 04:58 AMBardo
As others have said, you get a STR bonus when you equip the DRG soulstone.
At 50, that STR bonus out-weighs any of the cross class skills you could pick up by staying LNC. -
10-31-2013, 05:47 AMKasandaro
Two passing thoughts:
* Cure/Physick are so strongly tied to the MND stat that they're downright laughable on a non-DoM job. Even GLD who get access don't use it, since the return is so horrible. (Go check the Tank forum. It's really that bad.)
* Eye for an Eye can't be cast on self, only another party member (including pets). It would be incredibly situational, as much as Raise. -
10-31-2013, 07:04 AMEricyu
well hopefully in 2.1, we'll get more cross class skills that benefit our DPS more. Currently we really only have Internal Release and Fracture =/. You can count mercy stroke if you want but its cd is 90 secs and can only be used once a target's hp is 20% -... Everything else like skull sunder...etc i have no idea why its under the DRG tree but we'll see.
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10-31-2013, 08:00 AMLbdizzleAhh another helpful hint. Thanks for the fix, my mistake. XIVDB is one of my favorite sites. I will fix that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Themis
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10-31-2013, 08:48 AMXal
dragon ftw
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10-31-2013, 09:31 AMAyvarYou'd actually be surprised at Mercy Stroke sometimes. On Turn 4 it gets used a lot because there are multiple targets throughout the fight that have to be taken down quickly. Can usually get about 4-5 off depending on your group. Skull Sunder has its uses, there's a rook in the third bug wave in Turn 4 that you can snap aggro with a LS+Skull Sunder combo and then tank until it dies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ericyu
The thing with cross-class abilities is not to pick only 5 and stick with them forever. You can swap them in and out as needed depending on the fight. Even if an ability has only one or two uses, I'm still glad to have it on those occasions when I need it. -
10-31-2013, 08:09 PMAcaelus
Dragoon will always be better than Lancer, no matter how you try to swing it. The testing is done and the numbers are in!
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11-01-2013, 02:08 AMMagoArcano
Jump is a nice skill that can also get you killed if bad timed. Spineshatter and Dragonfire are less dangerous.
These jumps help a lot on fights where you have to move from mob to mob. Walking from mob to mob reduces your dps. Other than that and idk the specific weapon, lancer is better when you have the cross class skilled activated. -
11-01-2013, 03:32 AMWhiz
Why do people even make fantasy threads like this w/o doing 0 research.... bored at work? Op doesn't even know what "coil" is or where alligan drops are from after that its just /thread.