Problems with Tank threat in BC

Just looking for some advice to give our raid tanks. I have hung up my shield and not tanking myself anymore. Currently I am playing a bard. We are experiencing a major issue with our tanks in Coil where our DPS are constantly threat capped. We can only do about 180 dps with relic +1 pld's before we encounter major threat issues on all bosses. ADS is even worse in turn 2.

I have verified they are acc capped (they are way over). They have some af2/allagan. They say they are spamming their threat combo as much as possible. We are not burning CD's at the start, and are giving them a good 10 count before engaging as dps. However in about 20 seconds after we start, we hit threat capped and it can take up to a minute of auto attacking before we can engage again. I used to tank, and never had this issue anywhere. So I don't really have any good advice to give. Do they just suck? Is there something they or we as dps are missing? Has anyone else encountered this? How are tanks holding threat on these dps that are supposedly doing 300+ dps?

It's worse on ADS because he resists slashing damage I believe, so paladins will have to work harder to gain threat. My FC has 3 groups clearing through turn 4, and I tank one of them. We never seem to have any threat issues as far as DPS pulling things off tanks, and we have the DPS to burn down turn 4, so I don't think you can say our DPS are gimpy. Not sure what your pallys are doing wrong, only thing I can think, Is maybe during ADS when they are tank flopping, are they not communicating their provokes?(I.e. Tank A Provokes and then should Halone to secure threat, but because of lag and tank B not knowing the provoke is coming, he halones at the same time the other tank provokes, making hate a bit funky?)

Don't get stuck on ADS, yes we are aware of the buff and it makes it even worse (pulling threat at sub 150 dps). But the issue exists on all turns, with 200 dps even being too much for them to handle.

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

Do they just suck?

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Short answer, yes.

Long answer, the only fights where a tank should have any kind of enmity problems is Turn 2 for the miniboss and boss who has slashing resistance, which ends up only reducing tank damage (and therefore enmity). Even then, if you give the tank even a 2 GCD lead, they should have more than enough of a cushion to last for the entire fight. I've run with relic +1 DPS in full DL with some AF2 and never had enmity issues on anything except for those fights.

If your tanks are having enmity problems, they're not using their rotations and other abilities correctly. WARs should be using BB>BB>SE, not straight BB or BB>SE as I see so many do. PLDs should be using Halone spam as well as CoS as on CD. While you can't do it for ADS since you need the silence, you should also be using Spirits Within on CD because that contributes nearly as much damage over time as Spirits Within. I've never seen a DPS get more than 30-40% enmity on a boss while I'm tanking on either a PLD or a WAR. Tanks have *more* than enough enmity.

Of course, it's not entirely on the tanks to maintain that enmity cushion. All ranged DPS should be using Quelling Strikes, especially on their opening volley. Melee DPS tend not to be a problem since they have to build up damage so they don't present much of a frontloading threat (which is where enmity is actually a problem.

I just haven't experienced an enmity problem in BC. I have a relic axe +1 and I generate more enmity than the PLD does (he just has a normal relic, and berserked crits on BB are beautiful), but he gets my enmity and I get his when we swap the bosses via Provoke. The only time enmity would be an issue would be near the start of a fight if someone decides to go balls to the wall before a tank can establish any enmity, but no one should be doing that. It just sounds like people aren't using their abilities optimally, and it's probably the tanks. I don't know what else to tell you.

My group actually goes a different route through Coil, avoiding the slashing resist. Our DPS for T2 is 2BRD 2BLM, so we take the Blunt and Piercing route (West Route). BRD dps takes quite the hit, but the blms more than make up the difference. Not having slashing resistance also makes threat easier on that fight.

Not sure what to tell you, but I rarely see threat issues beyond the first couple of seconds of an encounter. One of the BLMs likes to pull hate off the soldiers right at start of wave2 during Turn 4, but otherwise only issue is when dps pop CDs on first GCD.

My coil group never has threat issues from tanks. I used to roll BRD for coil before taking the Tank spot when it opened, and our DPS give a 2sec wait, baically when the tank reaches mob and starts their first combo we start DPSing without holding back. If your giving them 10 seconds and still having issues your tanks are doing something VERY WRONG.

We have puged a few tanks when we were missing a member and some do it wrong and have alot of issues, we quickly end and find a good tank or dont waste our time. Tanking isn't that hard, follow a simple threat combo over and over mostly with a few other skills/combos passed in every few combos... if they cant do this correct, I dont know what to tell you to tell to them.

Take a Warrior

We used to take a warrior, his threat was even more terribad...

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

We used to take a warrior, his threat was even more terribad...

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Tell him to stop licking windows.

Honestly, we do Turn 2 with a Warrior and a Paladin, and threat is only an issue if the PLD pulls the mobs who have the slashing resistance. If the Warrior pulls, no threat issues ever.

FC is putting 2 or 3 groups through turn1-4 each week now. Pretty much always WAR/PLD and I've never heard of agro cap problems. More likely to mess up on agro switching or interrupting boss abilities.

WAR gives the 10% slashing resistance enhancement from Storm's Eye, so that would help both tanks' agro. As for the comment about your WAR having worse agro, I don't think that should be the case. For example, Dreadnaught in turn4 wave 3. PLD picks him up, we wait for it to eat the bugs, then myself (WAR) and all the DPS start in somewhat later. I have to watch agro bar there to avoid taking agro from PLD, even after that much head start, because I'm burning offensive cooldowns at that point. WAR agro should be fine.

Beyond that, just tell them to do anything to increase damage.
- Fight or Flight, Circle of Scorn, Spirits Within (PLD)
- Berserk, Internal Release, Maim, Storm's Eye (WAR)
- Potion of Strength
- DPS food
- Upgrade armor (myth/allagan armor, or crafted jewelry -- all of these have more STR than DL or ilvl90 jewelry)
- Wear a piece or 2 of STR jewelry if you're desperate

Edit: Oh also, your tanks are spending the minimal amount of time dodging area stuff, right? Less time dodging = more time hitting.

RhazeCain I like you. Your telling them to add damage so I won't have to.

Drop vitality and get more strength .

The difference between average threat and max threat on paladin is abusing off-gcd abilities.

This is my opening rotation on mobs:
1.Shield Lob
2. Use Fight or Flight during the global cd of shield lob and running to get into melee range
3. fast blade
4. Spirits Within
5. savage blade
6. circle of scorn
7. rage of halone

Note that 2,4, and 6 are all off the gcd. This means that you can pop them in between your standard combo. So, every global you should be hitting fast, savage, or rage. Spirits within and Circle of Scorn (yes, even though it's aoe, should still be used single target) should be used whenever they're up, but only in the gaps between fast, savage, or rage. All paladin mitigation cd's are also off the gcd, so there is no excuse to not be spamming your basic combo. The only notable ability that paladins use that isn't either the main combo or off gcd is the stun.

Quick question. Are the PLDs Lalafell by any chance?

Apparently the enmity boost on Shield Oath is broken for Lalafells. Meaning we have to work harder to keep hate. Haven't had much of an issue but I've only done the last boss on T1 and didn't have any trouble with that.

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Originally Posted by Kal-El

Quick question. Are the PLDs Lalafell by any chance?

Apparently the enmity boost on Shield Oath is broken for Lalafells. Meaning we have to work harder to keep hate. Haven't had much of an issue but I've only done the last boss on T1 and didn't have any trouble with that.

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This was patched and is no longer the case.

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Originally Posted by Paikis

This was patched and is no longer the case.

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Ahh good to know. Thanks!

Ignore my previous post :)