[dev1073] Stats without Physical Levels

In a world without Physical Levels, how would stat assignment and bonuses work?

Well, each Armory System Class trains you in the use of certain weapons, tools, and magic. The more you practice and use those weapons and tools, the better you get at using them, and the more things you can do with them (i.e. gain abilities). But also your underlying physical and mental attributes that help you use those tools and weapons should also improve ... based on which weapon or tool you are ranking up in.

So an Olympic javalin thrower, as he gets better and more practiced, would gain both in strength (to throw farther) and in dexterity (to throw accurately). Meanwhile, an Olympic boxer would gain in dexterity (to dodge and land punches) and vitality (to take punches when they do land). In this scenario, the boxer would become tougher than the javalin thrower, but the javalin thrower would become stronger than the boxer over time. This hearkens back to Hiromich Tanaka's original vision of "organic growth".

So how do we do this in FFXIV?

Whenever a character gains an Armory Class rank, that character gains points in corresponding stats appropriate for the weapon/class he's gaining rank in ... let's say 6 points. Below is possible way of distributing those points.

Gladiator: VIT +3, DEX+2, STR +1
Pugilist: DEX +3, VIT +2, STR +1
Marauder: STR +3, VIT +2, DEX +1
Archer: DEX +3, STR +2, VIT +1
Lancer: STR +2, DEX+2, VIT+2

Conjurer: INT +3, MND +2, PIE +1
Thaumaturge: PIE +3, MND +2, INT +1

Disciples Of Hand & Land would also get stat points as they rank up, based on their class primary and secondary stats (official list here), but it would only be 3 points.

Alchemist: INT +2, PIE+1
Armorer: VIT +2, STR +1
Blacksmith: STR +2, MND +1
Carpenter: VIT +2, DEX +1
Culinarian: MND +2, PIE +1
Goldsmith: DEX +2, INT +1
Leatherworker: VIT +2, INT +1
Weaver: DEX +2, MND +1

Botanist: STR +2, INT+1
Miner: VIT +2, MND +1
Fisher: DEX +2, PIE +1

In any case, whenever a character would gain rank, they would also get 1 point that they can assign to any stat regardless of what class they gained the rank in. Call it a discretionary point, an extra-curricular activity point, or a customization point ... whatever you want. It's to allow some degree of individualization so that every naked Rank 50 Lancer doesn't have identical stats.

A lot of players seemed worried about how stats would work in a world without physical levels. This is one way. And it's not a bad way, in my opinion.

I like this. I could see it working well. But eventually it would mean that if you do not rank absolutely everything in the game you'll eventually be considered Gimp, or the stats cap at certain ranks for the class (Higher then it could get on its own of course so the secondary stat gains still give some bonus.) or some other way to balance it so that having all the classes leveled isn't a requirement. With the "Discretionary Points" being uncapped. So even if a Rank 50 Lancer is capped at 115 STR and he has discretionary points to spend they can go above that 115 cap.

If there is a Cap though, it should be displayed.

This system leaves DoH and DoL classes with inferior attributes and limits customization of any class.

Just reposting this here since it is so on topic. I also don't feel like rethinking it and giving it an abridged version.


Perhaps initial point allocation will tie into your current class and will magically reassign themselves for a new class. For instance: A pugilist will level to say 20. His stats will focus on STR, DEX, and VIT as he levels. After rank 20 he wants to level a different class so he changes to Conj. His stats stay the same. Point reallocation was never said to be removed. In order to reallocate points to something befitting a conjurer he goes to the conj. guild and requests for point reassignment. The amount of points able to be redistributed may be based upon the new class' rank.

A rank 20 pug will have to slowly change points over time as he ranks up in order to optimize his new class, or just level it as is until he learns the spells he desires from conj.

This method retains the "boost in power" a seasoned character will receive upon changing classes. It also adds in that time sink for point reallocation- primarily, if you wish to optimize your points you have to return to your class guild in order to move those points. This is a more organic timesink than just waiting 3 hours to move some points. If you're hardcore about it, you'll go back after every rank up, if you're casual you can wait until the end of a leveling session to redistribute points.

If our character in question attains rank 20 as a conjurer and matches his current highest rank, he will then continue to gain points focused at whatever job he is currently leveling beyond 20. This does a few things. It would allow players to play with stats as you bounce from job to job, you could essentially keep balanced stats if you level a DoW and a DoM simultaneously and only redistribute a certain amount of your points. You could create your incredibly noobish underpowered character if you please, or you could work with the system to promote optimization.

Honestly, I don't see any other way to implement the abolition of physical levels and point allocation without having a way to still be other classes. If they are charging per-character slot I don't want to have to pay for more just to have a caster and a crafter and a melee character. That is just trying to take our monies and I'm not cool with that. We will be able to reallocate points (somehow, probably similar to the instance stated above) we will be able to maintain a bit of our power when switching to lower rank jobs, and the system will be better than the current implementation. Mark my words.

Edit: I also forsee job level in addition to class rank. So we will still have two things to level up

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Originally Posted by Nergui

This system leaves DoH and DoL classes with inferior attributes and limits customization of any class.

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True on both counts.

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On the issue of giving Disciples of Hand & Land inferior attributes growth compared to the Disciples of War & Magic ...

First, crafters and gathers do not use as broad a range of derived stats as warriors and mages do. Crafters and gathers don't use magic accuracy, magic potency, physical accuracy, attack power, physical defense, magical defense, evasion, parry rate, hit points, or magic points. They only use perception, output, gathering, control, craftsmanship, and magical craftsmanship instead. That's 10 to 6. Since crafters and gathers use fewer derived stats, one could argue that they don't need as many stat points. So should a rank 50 Weaver have as much evasion as a rank 50 Archer?

But on the other hand, one can also argue that one of the features that makes FFXIV unique and appealing is the fact that the crafter and gather classes are full-blown classes with equal weight and standing as warrior and mage classes. They just apply their stats to do different things. In this game, getting a Blacksmith to rank 50 is as impressive as getting a Marauder to rank 50 (maybe even moreso). So should a rank 50 Blacksmith be any less strong than a Rank 50 Marauder?

Personally, I'm more in favor of the second argument. I think that Nergui is also of that mindset (but Nergui will have to speak for himself/herself). So if we balance stat gains between ALL the Armory Classes (let's say 4 points per rank), it could maybe look like this.

Gladiator: VIT +2, DEX+1, STR +1
Archer: DEX +2, STR +1, VIT +1
Pugilist: DEX +2, STR +1, VIT +1
Marauder: STR +2, VIT +1, DEX +1
Lancer: STR +2, VIT +1, DEX +1

Conjurer: INT +2, MND +1, PIE +1
Thaumaturge: PIE +2, MND +1, INT +1

Alchemist: INT +2, PIE+2
Armorer: VIT +2, STR +2
Blacksmith: STR +2, MND +2
Carpenter: VIT +2, DEX +2
Culinarian: MND +2, PIE +2
Goldsmith: DEX +2, INT +2
Leatherworker: VIT +2, INT +2
Weaver: DEX +2, MND +2

Botanist: STR +2, INT+2
Miner: VIT +2, MND +2
Fisher: DEX +2, PIE +2

And every rank you gain, regardless of class, will give you 1 extra stat point that you can put in any stat you like.

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Which brings us to the second issue of the limits this would impose on the customization of any class. Yes, a system like the one above would impose some limits on class customization, but those limits would be so loose they would be better described as "boundaries" instead of limits.

Using a straight Rank 20 Gladiator as an example (VIT +40, DEX +20, STR +20, w/20 customization points), we can outline these "boundary character builds" which would be the extreme limit of customizations.

Very Tough R20 Gladiator: VIT +60, DEX+20, STR+20.
Nimble & Tough R20 Gladiator: VIT +40, DEX +40, STR+20.
Strong & Tough R20 Gladiator: VIT +40, DEX +20, STR+40.

Of course, a player can spend their customization points anyway they choose, as much or as little as they want. They don't have to put them into a stat that's already getting a bonus. They can decide that this particular Gladiator like to read literature and put those points in INT. This becomes interesting if the player has ranked up more than one class on the character.

R10 Gladiator & R10 Conjurer (VIT +20, DEX +10, STR +10, INT +20, MND +10, PIE +10, w/20 customization points).

This character still has 20 customization points from the 20 ranks she earned. She can use those points to bring make her VIT +40, or her INT +40, or any other stat +30 ... or any combination in between.

But Nergui is correct. Even with the level of customization the above system provides, it will be less than what we currently have in the game, right now. Right now, I can make a Gladiator and put every stat point I earn into INT, and completely ignore the other stats. That's an incredible amount of freedom, no doubt. So I can understand how players would not want to give all of that freedom up.

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Character Development

* Battle Attribute Allotment

When it comes to battle, class rank should, by logic, be more important than physical level. The reality of the situation, however, is that attribute point allotment is dependent upon physical level, something that is causing complications in our endeavor to improve the battle system.

In the recent battle poll (thanks to all who participated), we learned that a considerable number of players would be willing to forgo physical levels, but wanted to retain the ability to customize characters through attribute allotment. Armed with this knowledge, we proceeded to formulate the optimal solution.

The decision: attribute point allotment will no longer accompany gains in physical level, and will instead occur when characters rise in class rank. Although the amount in frequency of points awarded will be lower than previously, players will find that each point will have a more profound effect.

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From - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...form-Blueprint

While the amount of effort you put into this system is commendable, it would seem the decision has already been made.

Note the responses in this thread - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...oint-allotment!

Many like myself do not like automated point allotment.

I am in agreement and would prefer complete customization of stat points, also.

But if the Development Team did go with an automated allotment system, the above system would not be improbable. And from what I can tell from the Letter From The Producer #10, there is going to be at least an automated "option", if not a system.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nergui

From - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...form-Blueprint

While the amount of effort you put into this system is commendable, it would seem the decision has already been made.

Note the responses in this thread - http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...oint-allotment!

Many like myself do not like automated point allotment.

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Its optional. You will have the option to either be automatic or distribute the points yourself.

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Originally Posted by Teknoman

Its optional. You will have the option to either be automatic or distribute the points yourself.

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Well that's the thing that strikes me as sort of odd.

Why would any player choose automatic, when they have the option of allocating their stat points manually?

I would think that every player cares enough about their character to not leave it to the computer to determine where to put their stats. That may be a false assumption on my part, though.

But if that assumption is not false ... why would the Development Team take the time to build an "automated" stat allocation system "based on class" that no player would likely use ...

... unless you don't have a choice. It MUST be used.

It's entirely possible that the "optional" part in Akihiko Matsui's quote isn't referring to the automated class-based point allocation system, but is actually referring to "optional points" players get in addition to the points provided by the automated class-based allocation system.

If you read the quote over again, and the Letter From The Producer #10 you'll see what I mean.

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Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida

-NEW-
Shift to automated character development based on class rank, with optional attribute point allotment

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Akihikio_Matsui

The decision: attribute point allotment will no longer accompany gains in physical level, and will instead occur when characters rise in class rank. Although the amount in frequency of points awarded will be lower than previously, players will find that each point will have a more profound effect.

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Why can the system be, each classes received a amount of points as he gains a level. That will go as a player level, that player grows so he get a amount of points to allocate. Like the current system, you can re-allocate the points if you want for that class only. So I have set my points for my Archer 50 and I am allow to reset them until I can find my personal sweet spot. Then I decided to change to mine level 20 conjury which it has its own points and allocation seperate from mine Archer for a level 20, giving me the freedom to grow mine conjury as I see fit.

At the same time giving the freedom of not having any caps on any of the stats. If a lv 20 gets 50 points I can change my Mage for different setups. ATK 0, DEF 25, DEV 0, INT 10, Mind 10, Piety 5 or change DEF 0, with INT 35. That would make a weak to attack Mage with alot of damage. Giving me the freedom to adjust my class character to my play style.

In conclusion, to use the current system with no caps but each class has it separate group of points to be allocated.

Big problem with that assignment is fisher and botanist will die from a gust of wind in the field let alone being hit by an enemy

It's all well and good that eventually we're getting this custom allotment per class/job/whatever but it makes me wonder if SE can grasp that their attributes don't have to be on such a large scale.

There is something to said, and can be appreciated, about a game where stats don't look like STR 220 DEX 175, etc. And instead are smaller, more understandable numbers. Their scales seem completely arbitrary here and in XI. Can't everything just go to 99? Why do levels stop at 50, but we can have 174 Vitality, 177 attack on a lance, a block of 90 on a shield, 133 def on a hauby, and various other figures that are just difficult to interpret and compare with one another?

Can there be some simplification? I'd rather see a stat system like D20 where each point impacts performance than a system where gear has STR+8 on it and that means what exactly?

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it makes me wonder if SE can grasp that their attributes don't have to be on such a large scale.

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FFXI's scale is too small. WoW's is too large.
I believe FFXIV's is so far so good.

Why would you necro such an old topic? Also, the OP's idea is bad already because it essentially raises the level cap to almost infinite by letting you grow your stats until you're 50 on all classes.