Have anyone try this build before?
I feel full ability dex point and Accessories(dex+vit) more dodge rate
I complete relic weapon, ready try to cob
How about full dexterity on Paladin? thank you
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10-22-2013, 04:01 PMCyberSectionHow about full dexterity on Paladin? thank you
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10-22-2013, 04:32 PMMishayangg
How about no?
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10-22-2013, 06:23 PMXbob42
If you could get dodge rate to be even remotely viable, perhaps. But even with flash's blind up you don't dodge all that much. Consistency > Luck.
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10-22-2013, 10:09 PMklops
Can someone delete this thread please?
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10-23-2013, 06:00 AMRemn
last time i check Dodge only effect phy damage not Magic damage, so not really a good trade for me (with good old 30 VIT ^^)
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10-23-2013, 06:24 AMViridianaYou can "dodge" magic attacks. Mostly because "dodge" is the game saying that the enemy missed. I'm not entirely sure this can be boosted with DEX, but it is dodgeable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Remn
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10-23-2013, 06:28 AMCurlyBruce
DEX only affects Parry Rate,Block Rate, and Ranged Damage. Nothing more. The only metric that affects "dodge rate" is Feather Foot, Blind Debuff, and Level Correction (your level vs enemy level).
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10-23-2013, 06:35 AMHachiko
You should test it. Parse some WP's or something with 30 DEX v. 30 VIT and see if there is a noticeable difference in Parry and Block.
That's the best place to start, imo. -
10-23-2013, 09:01 AMjuniglee
Yes, dodge dat Repelling Cannons.
But as someone has mentioned, consistency > luck. Luck runs out far too often... -
10-24-2013, 12:22 AMKiaris
I may test out Dex on my PLD soon.
Currently in a raid i have 5970 HP.
I will be gaining another 15-20Vit from Myth tomes this week which will put me at 6195 - 6270 HP
Start using +15 Vit Food and ill be at 6420 / 6495Hp's
I could easily afford to drop 30 VIT and be at 6K HP and have extra Block/Parry Chance. -
10-24-2013, 12:32 AMGrembo
Already been proven multiple times dex is a waste, people thinking that anything other than full vit may be even remotely viable is just straight up silly.
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10-24-2013, 12:40 AMOdinTheTainted
I'm fully Dex. I parry a ton to be honest unless that's my scorpion hoplin doing the job. Tbh pals really don't need vit, our mitigation is so high I laugh at garuda's slip stream.
I've been a full 30 str pal as well,and let me tell you its easier to hold aggro. Idk mainstream vit is overrated . justput it all on str, or Dex. -
10-24-2013, 12:48 AMGremboYeah, sacrificing a larger HP pool and regen for a 1% increase in damage or a non existant increase to block rate is well worth it *rolls_eyes*Quote:
Originally Posted by OdinTheTainted
Good luck in Coil. -
10-24-2013, 12:58 AMMaelwys
This thread makes my brain hurt.
Short Answer: Go Vit.
Long Answer: Go Vit because speccing into Str or Dex is basically useless unless you can reach the next block/parry tier. You do NOT need help holding hate. You DO need help staying alive longer. In that regard, more Str/Dex will sometimes potentially be a very tiny bit helpful... but more Vit will always be noticeably and measurably helpful. -
10-24-2013, 01:00 AMJediman
I think i will stick with VIT >> HP >> DEF >> STR
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10-24-2013, 01:42 AMdark494http://i.imgur.com/gZduZZw.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by CyberSection
Plus it's already been shown that STR is what increases Block/Parry tiers -
10-24-2013, 01:47 AMJedimannice find booked mark will come in handy. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by dark494
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10-24-2013, 02:28 AMHachikoSTR increases Block / Parry damage reduction.Quote:
Originally Posted by dark494
DEX increases Block / Parry RATE. -
10-24-2013, 05:35 AMResoluteLol. Nice sig.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jediman
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10-24-2013, 06:11 AMAriyn
The only way this would even be a viable thought would be running full HQ Darksteel with maxxed out DEX. Which maybe viable for the time being but won't be towards the end of coil. Honestly even then if you managed to get an extra 2% chance to dodge/block/parry I'd be really surprised
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10-24-2013, 06:43 AMHachikoActually, you would want to do this with crafted jewelry (ideally DPS jewelry 4-5 melded with VIT and Parry).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariyn
You can get 40 from accessories (and 40 STR) at the cost of ~25 VIT and some parry.
That plus 30 Dex from distributable points would be 70, plus an additional what, Plus whatever you get for being in a party? That could potentially put you up two teirs in terms of block and parry, which could be between 2-4% additional chance for both, which would be a significant reduction in damage (~2%). -
10-24-2013, 09:38 AMJedimanyeah it got removed not like it showed much lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Resolute
this one but with bigger jugs i know what u thinking lol -
10-24-2013, 03:22 PMC-croftQuote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
Subtle snarkiness? -
10-24-2013, 03:28 PMmisterrpg
I hate how completely rude this community is.
And for those who are saying to go 30 VIT.. you're mistaken. It has been tested over and over again that 30 STR mitigates more damage than 30 VIT will give you more HP. If you really need that 450 HP to stay alive, then you should consider playing a different class entirely. -
10-24-2013, 06:25 PMMaelwysHowever as you mentioned, that 2% reduction in damage is gained at a cost of 25 Vit from accessories and 30 from distributable points.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
55 Vit = ~825HP. That's a lot of HP. At endgame you'll be sitting anything from 5.5 to 7.5k HP as a Paladin - so that's well over 10% of your HP. Which translates directly into extra health buffer for your cooldowns, healing and passive regen... even a little extra damage on "Spirits Within".
Even if we make a leap and assume that the Dex build would grant you a whopping 5% extra mitigation instead of 2%, you would need to be sitting at more than 16550HP for the percentage of extra damage mitigation granted by the Dex setup to the equal the percentage of HP you'd be giving up.
On solo Warriors, on easy content, sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by misterrpg
They can use the extra STR for more powerful self heals and reach the immortality line sooner (the point at which they can mitigate/heal all damage received and survive indefinitely)
On Paladins (OR warriors), grouped, on hard content, not a hope in hell.
On hard content, such as Titan HM or Coil or even certain endgame dungeons, you will NOT be able to outheal the incoming damage yourself and will have to rely on external healing. At that point, being able to mitigate the incoming damage as it hits you (and buffing the amount of healing you receive from external sources - see Wrath Stacks!) plays a far bigger role than being able to self-heal after receiving that incoming damage.
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What's better: being able to self-heal 200 points, or being able to resist incoming damage by 20%?
On a 500 damage hit:
(i) you take 500 damage, you heal 200, you're left with -300 HP.
(ii) you resist 100 damage, you're left with -400 HP.
So the Self-Healing is better.
On a 5000 damage hit:
(i) you take 5000 damage, you heal 200, you're left with -4800 HP.
(ii) you resist 1000 damage, you're left with -4000 HP.
So the Resistance is better. Particularly if you had between 4000HP and 5000HP, because (i) would be dead before they could self-heal.
Scaling Mitigation is better at hard content than Flat Mitigation.
More Vit is a higher HP pool for your damage resistance, passive regen and outside healing to act upon.
More Str is only good if you're having issues holding hate (which you shouldn't do, weapon quality being equal) or are doing content that is ridiculously easy (to the point that a Vit build very probably wouldn't struggle to survive it either, and would just complete it sightly more slowly!)
TL;DR: "Nope."
And if you're not referring to the endless "Warriors vs Paladins" debate, and are just saying that a Paladin should invest in speccing STR instead of VIT... then double-nope. Because it HAS been tested and 30 Str will AT BEST move you up 1% Parry and Shield block strength. Which is not a flat extra 1% mitigation, but an extra 1% mitigation (block strength) that you have a ~25% chance (block chance) of getting - assuming that you're fighting every enemy face-to-face so that you're running at your maximum parry chance and also assuming that all the attacks received are non-magic and blockable! And finally; since the distance between parry tiers is quite large, often +30 Str won't be enough to bump you up into the next parry/block tier anyway... in which case that extra Str would be completely wasted. -
10-24-2013, 09:04 PMFyreusIIRC those tests have been done in phase 3 before the changes made in phase 4 (against lowbie content mind you).Quote:
Originally Posted by misterrpg
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10-25-2013, 06:18 AMBardoBut higher max HP also means stronger Stoneskins and Lustrates. : /Quote:
Originally Posted by misterrpg
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10-25-2013, 06:21 AMAriynReally think you should take the time to look at valid tests because the str vs vit debate hasn't been in favor of str outside of farming dungeons or spiritbonding since phase 3. The only benefit from str current for a PLD is to reach the next tier in block dmg anything above or below that is completely wasted since even with 30 in str you would see maybe a 1% dmg increase which is worthless compared to the HP gain. For a WAR str is a bigger debate since it does provide them with a little more dmg which does equate to more survivability for them. However even the few that are doing coil seem to be going VIT just due to the sheer dmg they take.Quote:
Originally Posted by misterrpg
Not sure what content you have done but in Turn 5 that 450 HP can very easily save a wipe when a death sentence and auto attack hit you for 6k total. Without that 30 vit you wouldn't survive it
Like how you said ~25 vit and some parry ... So basically you are stacking Dex to equal out to the parry you lost? Gain 2% block chance and sacrifice 2% block amount. Fail to see where you are gaining anything at all here. Seems to me like no matter how you spin that you are losingQuote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
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10-25-2013, 06:27 AMStryker
I would pay the price of admission to see a full dex tank at end game.
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10-25-2013, 07:09 AMHachikoYou've really screwed up your math. There is no way you would need to be at 16550 HP for the extra damage reduction to pay off. You can't just say "825/.05 = 16550!" because that's a meaningless calculation. What matters is incoming damage, relative damage reductions, and your healer's ability to keep you alive. More HP increases your ability to survive burst damage, but more damage reduction increases your healer's ability to keep you alive versus higher sustained damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maelwys
If you really wanted to be silly you could calculate a "time to death" at various levels of DPS for various levels of DEX / STR but it seems like a fool's errand to me. If you had 10k HP it would be easily worth it to sacrifice 10% of your HP for an additional 5% damage reduction, particularly at the current levels of DPS.
At 7k it's up in the air / up for debate. But without any testing or any solid modeling It's silly to just say one way or another that it's pointless or not.
If you look at it this way, a PLD will block ~22% of the incoming hits, and parry ~19% of those not blocked (at my gear level, anyway). That means 41% of hits are reduced by a significant amount. If you can take that up by 3% each, that would mean 25% blocks and 22% parries. That's 47% of all hits being reduced by a significant amount.
That's a clear gain. The question then becomes whether or not you are still in burst range.
And chances are dropping the allocated VIT is not going to be worth it until you have very high levels of VIT from gear. But on the other hand it is probably worth it to sacrifice the 25 VIT / 25 Parry for 45 STR and 45 DEX * (I wasn't using HQ stats before, derp) if you can afford it.
Unfortunately, I can't, otherwise I would try it.
Nah you only lose ~25 parry rating IIRC. 40 DEX will outweigh that, particularly if you have high parry values from your other gear. You won't be sacrificing any block amount, and in fact it will go up with gryphonskin accessories (40 STR is enough to bump both block and parry values by at least 1%).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ariyn
Plus you're talking about parry AND block rate going up, and parry AND block value going up.
No I think someone should do some extensive testing of this.Quote:
Originally Posted by C-croft
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10-25-2013, 09:25 AMC-croftQuote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
I thought this was a moot point, especially since everyone scoffs at the idea of using DEX at all since it's not on tank gear at all. Anytime I have brought it up, I have been slammed for even thinking about it. To be honest, I have been lacking seals until recently and trying to decide what I am going to do with my points after setting it to 25 DEX 5 VIT. Seeing as how I don't plan on going into coil soon, won't be tanking Titan soon, thinking about going full piety for that extra flash. :/sarcasm. Probably just going to reach for a little STR then rest to VIT. I wanted to start parsing to see a WAR specific affect on DEX, but got lazy, really lazy, and then depressed reading these forums. So I gave up. LOL Not like it matters now that they said they are going to 'fix' WARS. No sense in arguing anything now. -
10-25-2013, 09:53 AMMaelwysI agree that it depends entirely on whether you'd otherwise live through content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hachiko
Aside from Spirits Within, Vit basically affects a Paladin's HP buffer before death and passive regeneration rate. Personally I'd rather give a healer an extra >10% HP buffer to work with than myself an extra 2% to parry - Paladin already has a large amount of passive mitigation and cooldowns to work with, and that extra raw HP would be put to good use.
My reasoning would be that higher Maximum HP means that I could consistently withstand higher levels of spike damage. Given current content (bosses dealing large damage hits far apart, a Tank's HP bar usually being healed to full between hits) I find the ability to take much larger hits in a short space of time vastly preferable to potentially taking slightly less ongoing damage over time... But yes, I agree that if I am running content where my HP is never going to be topped up then the extra block/parry mitigation could potentially work out slightly better than the extra passive regeneration from Vit.
Wearing Allagan/Hero gear and 5x Melded Gryphonskin Accessories will allow you to hit around ~406 Str (just managing to reach the next block strength tier) and ~235 Dex (around 15-20 above our estimated floor, which observations suggest would barely be enough for an extra +2% Parry rate, but we'll assume PLD scale is slightly different to WAR and you manage to get +3% somehow) so the maximum you're going to be able to get is +2% Strength and +3% Rate from throwing everything into Dex and rocking extremely-pricey overmelded HQ Gryphonskin accessories.Quote:
If you look at it this way, a PLD will block ~22% of the incoming hits, and parry ~19% of those not blocked (at my gear level, anyway). That means 41% of hits are reduced by a significant amount. If you can take that up by 3% each, that would mean 25% blocks and 22% parries. That's 47% of all hits being reduced by a significant amount.
Relic +1 and Allagan Shields both have a Block Value of 181; so either one would give around a 28% Block Strength at 406 Str. Likewise, Parry is a flat 25% Strength at 406 Str.
So without the Gryphonskins and Point Distribution, you'd be looking at an average damage mitigation from Block of (0.26*0.22)=5.72% followed by an average damage mitigation from Parry of (0.23*0.19)=4.37%. Recalculating for the Gryphonskins and Point Distribution, you'd be looking at an average damage mitigation from Block of (0.28*0.25)=7.00% followed by an average damage mitigation from Parry of (0.25*0.22)=5.50%.
That's an average damage mitigation gain of (1.28+1.13)=2.41%
So, assuming a "best case scenario" (where you manage to go up 2 Block strength tiers and 3 Parry rate tiers, where the damage you're taking is non-magic/blockable and where you're able to face all your opponents 100% of the time)... the tradeoff would boil down to if you prefer an additional +10-15% HP (depending on gear), or an additional ~2.41% passive damage mitigation.
Probably, but it gives me a ballpark figure to work with.Quote:
You've really screwed up your math.
And I'd rather be able to take a hit that's 12% bigger than require 2.4% less healing over time. YMMV. -
11-02-2013, 08:00 AMDestinova
When we first started fighting Cadecues In turn one I was getting hit for about 2500 so it was healing intensive. I changed to full dex and I started blocking like crazy blocking 26% and parry 23%. I as blocking/parrying 1/3 attacks without bulwark up. So instead of getting hit for 2500 it was more like 1900 so I saved about 600 hp doing that.
But all dex doesn't help in turn 2 at all . I still think more tests need to be done before we can really say go full this or go that. A spread sheet of the stats tier would be good. Meaning dex between 225-250 = this block rate. Str between 225-250 = amount blocked. Now the str one is done bd ut we really dont have a dex one. -
11-02-2013, 06:53 PMSerophyn/trollingQuote:
Originally Posted by CyberSection
Hmm could you try out full mind to give your cureI more oomph so that I can stay in cleric stance longer please?