More flexibility with dungeon gear loots: Leader loot & Player trade

[Post edited to supplement it with others' contributions that were Liked]

The ways to deal with dungeon gear loots are extremely limited in this MMORPG. Here are a few features that could give us more flexibility:

• The ability to move to pass after you've rolled…
  … and another option that just means "Eh, I'll take it if nobody else wants it." (between "Greed" and "Pass")
• a Leader Loot (Master Loot) setting available for pre-made groups
• allowing Player-to-player trade within the dungeon

Here follow various thoughts from contributors, to sum up a bit these features in the OP.

••• The ability to move to pass after you've rolled,
and another option that just means "Eh, I'll take it if nobody else wants it."

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Originally Posted by Raldo

All I'd like to see is

1) The ability to move to pass after you've rolled.
2) Another option between Greed + Pass that just means "Eh, I'll take it if nobody else wants it."

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In itself, the ability to pass after you've rolled would be a simple fix that may be useful regardless of the others being implemented. It could even be enough in itself to solve the whole issue, should players get in the habit of "not clicking" when they want an item, so as to give others enough time to change their choice.

Next, please consider this, very practical and common situation which calls for a third choice:

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Originally Posted by peaches

I personally hate it when gear is just lost when nobody rolls, but I also hate greeding, because if anyone can use the gear that I don't need on any class I have, I don't want to steal it. I just want to be able to grab it so it's not lost.

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Smart fix (I think), it's simple and elegant: all players retain full control, yet it remains quick.

••• Leader Loot (a.k.a. "Master Loot")
Formally, this is a feature available in most MMORPG, designed to give authority to the party leader (or another player of choice) in distributing gear loots.

I'm not really sure if I consider master loot as a necessary evil or a pure comfort feature, a utility tool; I guess it all depends on how it's used and, by association, who uses it and when. In my mind, this Leader Loot feature would only be available for pre-made groups, and would perhaps require a confirmation vote by all members to be activated ("Do you agree to nominate <leader name> as loot manager?", or something equivalent), to make sure there's no abuse of authority.

••• Player-to-player trade allowance within a dungeon
This feature is not available in all MMORPG, but it's certainly neat. It allows a player who looted an item to give it to someone else in the group, should she want to, and provided they didn't equip (soulbound) the item in question.

As the previous feature, it's designed to avoid (or rather, fix) mistakes, and allows players to discuss gear loot afterwards, as long as they're still both in the dungeon. It's just quality of life, for players convenience. I realise that it's currently impossible to trade whatsoever within a dungeon, probably because we're all sitting "in another world" even if we all come from the same server; but I believe the items looted within the dungeon at hand should not be concerned by these restrictions.


A case for more flexibility
[This is the bulk of the initial post supplemented with various posters opinions, left here for reference.]
An automated loot system is OK, I guess, but I don't see why players couldn't be allowed to simply take the matter into their own hands and distribute or exchange the loots, gear and items, as they see fit. I know I'd like to be nice to others who need hippogryph skin X or mega-potion Y, and fix rolls mistakes, but I just can't as we speak.

More flexibility would help to:

1. Avoids mistakes —from players as well as developers.
People can be quick to click "greed", if only to dismiss the loot notification, and usually assuming that another player who needs the gear can always click "need": unfortunately, this isn't always the case. We recently had an example of a ring in Bahamut Coil which no one could "need" (probably made for a WAR or DRG), but the MNK could use it (and in fact he is also a fully DL/relic geared WAR). A player had already clicked "greed" and ended up winning the roll (he was a WHM and thinking of his alt job). That's too bad because "needs" choices are not a definitive authority on who could use which gear; and furthermore a player can mis-click or click a bit too fast. I know our WHM was really feeling bad when it happened.

There are a number of reasons to "make mistakes", as pointed out by several contributors to this topic. Everyone passing means the item is lost, which prompts a lot of people to rather "greed" by default, even if they don't need the item very much (for loose alt, typically). The "need" button cannot really be trusted by others (than the one actually needing), because said button isn't always available to begin with, and of course doesn't apply to all alt classes when no one technically needs it at the time of the loot.

2. Make up for GM shortcomings.
There is no possibility in this game to call for a GM afterwards on loot issues. Our WHM issued a ticket to which he received a reply saying, essentially, that "GMs can't change loot attribution" (can't, or won't, either way they don't deal with it to help players on such issues). We were quite astonished, since we assumed that a game we pay for would provide us such "high-level" service, but… well… that's how it is. So this made us realise that a Leader Loot feature would really be appreciated, even required.


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Thank you for you contribution! We may use this thread to discuss these suggestions, improve on them, and hopefully convey our desires to SE. This OP cannot reflect all opinions and controversies, please read the thread for that. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

• a Leader Loot (Master Loot) setting available for pre-made groups

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Yes, for obvious reasons, some that you have stated.

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Originally Posted by Alcyon_Densetsu

• a player-to-player trade allowance within the dungeon

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No, because this would push people to group up (8 ppl) in a 24m raid, all need on an item and decide to give all the loots to their friends.
Do you remember what happened with tokens when LFR came out?

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Originally Posted by zirkaloy

Yes, for obvious reasons, some that you have stated.



No, because this would push people to group up (8 ppl) in a 24m raid, all need on an item and decide to give all the loots to their friends.
Do you remember what happened with tokens when LFR came out?

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You're right about the second feature (player-to-player trade), it bears some exploiting risks. I think it would be a bit redundant should a Leader Loot feature be implemented anyway, I guess that was just fishing for solutions. Likewise, however, this player-to-player trade could be available only for fully pre-made groups, in which case there could be no abuse, it would simply be quality of life.

Cant believe the level of customer service we get from SE. You'd expect a lot more from a pay to play game. DCUO, a free to play game has way much better customer support than the POS service we get from squeenix. Such a shame.

As for your post, I wouldnt mind a Master Looter Option, as long as said option is visible before going into an instance.

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Originally Posted by Luthia

Cant believe the level of customer service we get from SE. You'd expect a lot more from a pay to play game. DCUO, a free to play game has way much better customer support than the POS service we get from squeenix. Such a shame.

As for your post, I wouldnt mind a Master Looter Option, as long as said option is visible before going into an instance.

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In no way am I contributing to the OP but I will say DCUO has by far the best styling system around and my soul might cry a bit when XIVs comes out with how bad it will be.

Then your Coils group should have a some system set up to where if a piece of gear drops that no one "Needs" then who is next in line to "Greed" for it gets. Kinda like we had in FFXI a point system for Dyna, dunno how you would do a point system in this game for a static coils group. So prioritize who gets what loot before you do a run.

I do not under any circumstance want the passing out of gear left up to one player ever again. People play favorites and tend to be greedy.

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Originally Posted by Arkista

Then your Coils group should have a some system set up to where if a piece of gear drops that no one "Needs" then who is next in line to "Greed" for it gets. Kinda like we had in FFXI a point system for Dyna, dunno how you would do a point system in this game for a static coils group. So prioritize who gets what loot before you do a run.

I do not under any circumstance want the passing out of gear left up to one player ever again. People play favorites and tend to be greedy.

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I agree and don't think it should be obliged to anyone, ever. Which is why I suggest that the activation of a "master loot" mode were submitted to an unanimous vote so that the 7 (soon 23) players accept said mode. Its activation would be notified to all players in a clear way, of course. Any change in the group composition would automatically reset the looting mode to "Need/Greed/Pass".

Granted, it's sometimes used as an abusive means to further up a personal agenda for one's own interests. Most MMO veterans however see it also as a useful tool to respond to a variety of situations where things require a little bit more reflexion. The experience shows that it's an invaluable tool to reassure people that they can do no mis-click.

People do click "greed" pretty fast, it's become some kind of automated response in this game (as in others and perhaps even a bit more actually). I think it's quite understandable.

You know, I can think of other ways to prevent that without a master loot feature. The point is to add a double-check, optionally to keep things simple 99% of the time.

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For instance, a simple "Result and Confirmation Screen", which would be a simple yes/no options to activate for a group leader. It would simply add one step to the loot attribution process (step 2 below).

1. Loots show up, every player can either "need", "greed" or pass on the item.
2. Once everyone chose, the server processes the likely results in a simple way:
Mike - "Need" - WIN (56)
Christie - "Need" - Lose (45)
John - "Greed" - would WIN (96)
Martha - "Greed" - would Lose (25)
etc.
> At the bottom of this results table, a simple question: "Do you want to go through with your choice? (Greed)". Saying "No" would bring up the need/greed/pass buttons back so you can alter your previous choice.

At which point people can talk (there's no forgetting to talk when you see such a warning table). Mike could say, "Oh Christie you need it? Hold on, I'll pass, I already have something almost as good." If it were a list full of "Greeds", people could just talk a bit about it: "OK, no one needs it, who's got a DRG or WAR 50 who could use this?", and all the others change their choice to "pass". You get the idea.

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I could probably make a much more comprehensive case for a "double-check" system on loots, but here's the bottom line: it's reassuring and comfortable for all, invaluable to avoid mistakes, and a feature expected for smooth raiding sessions in a MMORPG.

Agreed, this is a must have feature. I know even when playing with my roommate sometimes he accidentally clicks "Greed" on something now and then even after I ask him if he can not roll because I could really use it on my Alt class, and he doesn't even need it, just rolls to get it off the screen. If we could trade items found within the dungeon that would solve a LOT of problems, and would go a long ways to making everyone happy. There is not one single disadvantage I can think of for either of those features to be implemented.

All I'd like to see is

1) The ability to move to pass after you've rolled.
2) Another option between Greed + Pass that just means "Eh, I'll take it if nobody else wants it."

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Originally Posted by Raldo

All I'd like to see is

1) The ability to move to pass after you've rolled.
2) Another option between Greed + Pass that just means "Eh, I'll take it if nobody else wants it."

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Definitely to both. If someone hasn't rolled yet and say they ask if everyone can pass if they don't need it, you should be able to change your roll to Pass. I personally hate it when gear is just lost when nobody rolls, but I also hate greeding, because if anyone can use the gear that I don't need on any class I have, I don't want to steal it. I just want to be able to grab it so it's not lost.

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Originally Posted by zirkaloy

No, because this would push people to group up (8 ppl) in a 24m raid, all need on an item and decide to give all the loots to their friends.
Do you remember what happened with tokens when LFR came out?

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Last I checked just about all the dungeon gear is U/U with a few exceptions. While next to nothing in WoW is Unique, it's all Unique-Equipped or not at all. It was already barely an issue in WoW, it's even less of one here unless they are actually giving up gear for someone else because they can't roll again if they already have it. Loot is also considerably more restricted, 1-2 classes vs 3 classes with 9 roles. Having the ability to trade gear temporarily with others that were there when the boss died is better than not being able to in either situation IMO.

Even in WoW there's many players that will trade it to someone else that needs it more if they didn't actually need it.

What I'd want to see is everyone gets their own unique loot from a chest. That becomes tradeable within a small amount of time. Like player A got a heavy armor set for WAR/PLD, but isn't on said job. But the tank wanted it, and got something for that other job. Suddenly... Amagad wanna trade? And voila. Everyone's "happy" in some shape or form. (Imagine how fun that'd be with Primals?)

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Originally Posted by Raldo

All I'd like to see is

1) The ability to move to pass after you've rolled.
2) Another option between Greed + Pass that just means "Eh, I'll take it if nobody else wants it."

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Great ideas! I edited the OP to add these suggestions.

It serves the same purpose as a master loot mode, but I kinda prefer the elegance of this solution of yours. :)

It is very important in this day and age of MMO gaming that dungeon loot has a short trade duration. Mistakes are made and people should be able to correct those mistakes when gear goes to the wrong person.

Would like a response from a Dev about this. It makes it hard to set up a solid loot distribution system for my FC when we don't have the ability to assign gear to specific members. It's going to get much worse for 24-mans.

No No No to the Master Loot thing...there's a reason no one ever used Quartermaster in FFXI. Even in a friendly closeknit LS no one trusted the LS Leader THAT much...Dynamis was a bit of an exception as some did use quartermaster to ensure currency didn't fall on the ground due to not being able to lot them fast enough. I do agree with the other things though. Need an ability to pass after rolling or perhaps be able to see people's rolls. I liked in FFXI being able to see who passed and rolled. If no one lotted then I would lot so it wouldn't hit the floor.

The main risk I can see with player-to-player trade is that many people would start greeding/needing on stuff they made don't want/need, and then when they win it, go like:

"Trade me 20K if you want it."

Regarding features I'd like to see, I'd like the rolls to somehow take in account the player's actual class level instead of being just random. I'd like people whose classes are of level closest to the item's level to have higher priority than those who do not.

Example: lv15 Acolyte Robe drops.

Lv25 Conjurer Needs.
Lv16 Arcanist Needs.
Lv18 Lancer Greeds. Has lv13 Thaumaturge.
Lv17 Gladiator can Greeds. Has lv2 Conjurer and lv50 Thaumaturge

In this case, the Arcanist would win the armor piece. Because the Conjurer has outleveled the armor. If ACN passed, it would go to the Conjurer (due Need). If both CNJ and ACN passed, it would go to LNC because lv13 THM is far closer to lv15 than the Gladiator's DoMs are. With this system, current class would still have priority, but alternate classes would still be taken into account. Whenever I lose a greeded item for a class that can equip the item (I don't Greed if I can't equip it), I can't help but wonder if the guy who won it even has the class or just likes the green icon.

The Op has some good points and there are some downsides but really do we need the dev's to babysit everyone, just because some disagree or dont like this option (not referring to just the ideas in this threads but all threads) dosent mean it cant make the game a better place.

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

The Op has some good points and there are some downsides but really do we need the dev's to babysit everyone, just because some disagree or dont like this option (not referring to just the ideas in this threads but all threads) dosent mean it cant make the game a better place.

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Indeed, and as such I see all these features as "optional", simply as many ways to cater to different people's playstyles. I know in my FC most people are actually very cool about loots; it's just that we make mistakes, and are looking for ways to avoid/fix these involuntary errors. We never argue about loots, but we feel terrible when someone clicked "greed" too fast at the end of a run/boss/whatever. Also, we were very disappointed that a GM cannot (or will not) fix attribution mistakes in a pay-to-play game (really, we were not expecting such a low service, as every other sub-based MMO I played would provide such a basic service as fixing attribution mistakes), so we thought of ways to alleviate the issue —really just bringing in some features already seen working well in other MMO's.

Thanks everyone for your answers, contributions & (constructive) criticism, please keep'em going! :)

Don't try to fix what isn't broke is what I say on this. If you don't want it, Pass.. if you want it, take your chance like everyone else and hit greed. If your in a pre-made, why can you not just decide when the drop comes out if someone actually needs it, and just don't roll on it.. I don't see why there is any need for any other type of options on it.