Buff Bard - The Invisible Nerf

SE has recently said they are looking at nerfing BRD, well I say it's not necessary to do so, in fact I'm calling for a buff. A buff to songs.

We only have three songs usable in battle:

Mage's Ballad - Refresh MP - uses our MP and reduces our damage by -20%
Army's Paeon - Refresh TP - uses our MP and reduces our damage by -20%
Foe Requiem - Reduces all enemy elemental resistance by 10% - uses our MP

While this looks great on paper, there really is minimal reason for BRDs to have these songs up consistently. BRDs are supposed to be a support/DPS class and while they do bring buffs to the group, they need to be used carefully because these songs do eat the BRDs MP and then when you REALLY need these songs, you may not be able to cast them. So they are used sparingly. Not to mention the fact the only classes who really need Ballad are other BRDs, WHMs and PLDs.

What they need to do is decrease the MP taken from the BRD to keep these songs up, this way we have them up for a greater duration during fights and you inadvertently nerf BRDs by forcing them to have their songs up for longer a duration.

They could even add a few new songs into the rotation to force BRDs to have their songs up more frequently.

All The Following Songs have attached -damage dealt percentages on them. Could all be 20% or varying values.

Valor Minuet - Increases Determination
Sword Madrigal - Increases all stats by +20 (or whatever value)
Earth/Wind/Fire Carol - Reduces earth/wind/fire damage taken by 5%. (Three separate songs.)
Advancing March - Increases auto-attack speed.
Victory March - Reduces the Global Cooldown by .5 seconds

they never said they are nerfing Bard. They said there is no need to add anything to Bard because its powerful right now.

While I don't necessarily think there would be a problem with adding more...Only useful to WHM, PLD, and BRD? Where did you get that idea?

Army's Paeon is very useful for Monks because of Fracture (I assume this also holds true for drg skills?), and wouldn't it also be useful for WAR? not just PLD?

Foe Requiem can be very useful for BLM damage, especially their limit break.... I am not sure how good it is for SMN though I would imagine it would be useful for them as well.

Er... The reason Bards don't have songs up consistently is because they can't. MP costs and all. Mutual exclusivity. Even hearing distances. This is not really the issue at hand here. It's just horrible players getting out damaged by good players with weapons with less attack damage, swearing that their battle log parsers say that bards have low DPS. >.>

They said it's a little bit to powerful and will adjust it a little bit to be balanced. A little bit.

Buffing songs would just make Bards more overpowered. I dont think you thought this through enough. Its almost as if you thought that by buffing songs, bards would sing more, and therefore do less dmg. This assumption isnt remotely close to being true, and it does not remove the capacity for Bards to do so many things at such a high level with relative ease. Increasing a class's potential is not an invisible nerf.

The dmg by itself is not the issue. My mnk can easily outdmg a bard on a tank and spank. Its the dmg+mobility+boss mechanics that make bard a bit too strong for its own good. You have 100% mobility+100% dmg upkeep (except for occasional song)+no positional requirements. On top of all of this, you can buff the party too. This means on a fight like Titan or Coil, bards will outdps melees on the whole *while* providing capacity for buff support. The only reason to take a melee over a bard then is for the LB. Other than that Bard is *clearly* superior. Its common sense.

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Originally Posted by Rivienne

While I don't necessarily think there would be a problem with adding more...Only useful to WHM, PLD, and BRD? Where did you get that idea?

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Originally Posted by Aramyth

Not to mention the fact the only classes who really need Ballad are other BRDs, WHMs and PLDs.

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And I agree with OP. BRD should be more focused on support than damage. I don't usually use songs because they don't last long and are very situational. I'm a bard who doesn't sing, that makes no sense to me.
Giving BRD new songs and the opportunity to use them should make things interesting and acutally 'nerf' it a bit, since people say it's too strong.

But still, I can see how much of an advantage we have thanks to mobility and no real need for positioning, so I can understand any incoming nerf.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

they never said they are nerfing Bard. They said there is no need to add anything to Bard because its powerful right now.

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Originally Posted by Bayohne

■Job Balancing

• Bards
  We currently feel that the bards are a little too strong due to the amount of damage they can do without being impacted that much from the fight.

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Balancing, and too strong. So yes, they are likely getting a nerf of some kind.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

I dont think you thought this through enough. Its almost as if you thought that by buffing songs, bards would sing more, and therefore do less dmg. This assumption isnt remotely close to being true, and it does not remove the capacity for Bards to do so many things at such a high level with relative ease. Increasing a class's potential is not an invisible nerf.

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I don't think nerfing BRD mobility is the answer nor is straight out nerfing BRD damage because currently a SMN, MNK, DRG or BLM of EQUAL skill and gear will ALWAYS out DPS a BRD. Always. Even in Titan. The reason you don't see this frequently is because the skill required to play a BRD is lower but that doesn't mean it needs to be out right nerfed. Make it more complicated and just throwing casts on our skills is just going to make up BLMs (who hit for less) with TP instead of MP.

If you give BRDs a reason to keep up songs and make it more easily accessible to do so (by lowering the MP cost on them) then you are effectively buffing the support role of the BRD and effectively nerfing their damage by 20%. You need to give them a reason to have songs up. If they have songs up they will be playing the class the way it is meant to be played; a DPS/Support.

I started levelling my bard this week, people are always surprised when I sing for the healer's MP in longer fights. So you lose 20% damage while you sing, big deal, you can still fire off your abilities while moving and as mentioned before, no positional requirements.

I welcome any changes to make Bards use their songs more/ make other dps equally appealing to roll with.

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Originally Posted by ForteXX

Balancing, and too strong. So yes, they are likely getting a nerf of some kind.

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no where in that quote does it say that it will be nerfed.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

no where in that quote does it say that it will be nerfed.

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He said specifically that bards were a little too strong, so there will be adjustments. There will clearly be a nerf of some sort to bring bards down a peg. On highly mobile fights the dmg diff is a bit too wide for all that bard brings to the table, so its only natural they will be toned down.

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

He said specifically that bards were a little too strong, so there will be adjustments. There will clearly be a nerf of some sort to bring bards down a peg. On highly mobile fights the dmg diff is a bit too wide for all that bard brings to the table, so its only natural they will be toned down.

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I saw that he said bard was strong, but no where did he say he would nerf damage. Right now everyone is guessing what balance will be. Maybe they will buff the other jobs and not add anything to bard. Who knows.

I just don't get all of the people who attempt to defend bards as if they don't do nice damage. As a Monk, it doesn't matter to me what kind of damage someone else does...I just want the love...i.e. I want people to say "Looking for a monK for party" and I've yet to see people really caring that much about us melee classes. People say "too much melee in this group" but I've never seen "too much ranged in this group"

I constantly get grouped with a bard and finish dungeons faster if one or more are in with me than other DPS jobs.

I was in with a relic bard in a titan hm group yesterday and we killed the heart with a lot of time to spare. The bard dropped and we got a +1 dragoon and we had to LB2 in order to kill the heart and even failed twice.

Everywhere you go people are shouting that all they're looking for is a bard for the party and then they're good to go. I was in a couple groups yesterday where the DPS was me and 3 bards. Everyone's trying to level one up because they're wanted and useful...they just need to change melee a bit so they're as wanted and useful.

Bards just need some cast times added to some of their attacks or some should root them in place for 2-3 seconds for them to be balanced, losing ZERO damage while moving and being at range is simply too strong, even if in target dummy situations they're the worst DPS it's still not balanced.

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Originally Posted by LoLo

I saw that he said bard was strong, but no where did he say he would nerf damage. Right now everyone is guessing what balance will be. Maybe they will buff the other jobs and not add anything to bard. Who knows.

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It's pretty damn obvious because they aren't going to rebalance the rest of the game to stop bards from getting slapped with the nerf bat.

I bring a TP song up if a tank is speeding through a dungeon and I'm running low on TP.

I buff MP when someone dies and healer needs to use a lot of MP.

It's really about the timing of when to cast these songs, they're not meant to be casted from the start unless it's a boss that requires lots of dps for long periods of time.

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Originally Posted by RyujinUzikin

I bring a TP song up if a tank is speeding through a dungeon and I'm running low on TP.

I buff MP when someone dies and healer needs to use a lot of MP.

It's really about the timing of when to cast these songs, they're not meant to be casted from the start unless it's a boss that requires lots of dps for long periods of time.

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If you lvl drg to 34 there is no need to sing tp songs for your brd

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Originally Posted by RyujinUzikin

I bring a TP song up if a tank is speeding through a dungeon and I'm running low on TP.

I buff MP when someone dies and healer needs to use a lot of MP.

It's really about the timing of when to cast these songs, they're not meant to be casted from the start unless it's a boss that requires lots of dps for long periods of time.

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Right, which means buff BRD songs and give them a reason to have them up for longer. You're buffing the class in its support role and effectively nerfing their damage at the same time with the damage dealt reductions on songs.

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Originally Posted by Aramyth

BRDs are supposed to be a support/DPS class

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So you are saying players pick Pure DPS class - Archer, at the beginning of the game, only to find out they got tricked into picking some support/buffer @ end-game, which they had no intention to play for?
I don't agree with your statement, Bard is and should be DPS job which should not be worse at his role than any other pure dps job.
Only thing that needs to be changed, is its limit break.

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Originally Posted by Aramyth

Right, which means buff BRD songs and give them a reason to have them up for longer. You're buffing the class in its support role and effectively nerfing their damage at the same time with the damage dealt reductions on songs.

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I'd prefer a useful song or two to help us sing them more. Maybe one that increases the party's attack, to help with the DPS, one to increase their defense, and one to increase cast and skill speed. Of course all 3 would have the -20% damage dealt thing on them, but hey, who'd care when you'd be able to increase the DPS power and survivability of everybody else?

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Originally Posted by Lux_Rayna

He said specifically that bards were a little too strong, so there will be adjustments. There will clearly be a nerf of some sort to bring bards down a peg. On highly mobile fights the dmg diff is a bit too wide for all that bard brings to the table, so its only natural they will be toned down.

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People must remember that, while other DPSs are able to use a Damage LB, Bards are stuck with a Healer LB, so If you have a party with 2 BRDs in a group of 4, you wont have that massive final Hit if you need it, It's only natural that BRDs do more damage.

Llan Hana.

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Originally Posted by complexxL9

So you are saying players pick Pure DPS class - Archer, at the beginning of the game, only to find out they got tricked into picking some support/buffer @ end-game, which they had no intention to play for?
I don't agree with your statement, Bard is and should be DPS job which should not be worse at his role than any other pure dps job.
Only thing that needs to be changed, is its limit break.

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It was intended to be a support class from the outset. Nothing you complain about is going to change the past and the original intent of the developers. I can understand the stance that you've been tricked because you started as archer, but I'd say odds are pretty damn good there will be a pure DPS ranged job eventually. So how about this, I keep the job I chose SPECIFICALLY because it was a support job and you jump ship to whatever the hell they make in the future?

It's a little off topic but imo what bard should have been is a class that focuses on support. Rather than having "Press 1 to play a song", they play three notes to make one chord (which would be a replacement for songs). For example, the chord C major would use three notes, C, E, G. Each of these notes would be there own ability and have a couple of seconds cast but be off the GCD. C major could recover mana, where as C minor (C, Eb, G) would recover TP.

Just something I thought could be cool ^^

As I said in another thread.
If you want to make bards support fine. Then you give bards there own role to queue into. Cause then bards aren't dpses.

a lot of us brought this issue to light... about brd not being support in 1.0... how are we support if we can only have one song up at a time? and then 2.0... came and now our songs do -20% damage... yeah... and now we cant even aoe stoneskin the party... or cast cure...

so, wtf are we? support/dps?

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While this looks great on paper, there really is minimal reason for BRDs to have these songs up consistently.

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You're not supposed to have songs up constantly. You're supposed to have them up when the party needs them. The songs work fine, all of them are used (TP probably used the least but can be helpful sometimes), while I wouldn't complain if they were made stronger, I think they're fine the way they are.

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Originally Posted by Gokudo83

If you lvl drg to 34 there is no need to sing tp songs for your brd

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Our AOE's take a lot of TP. The song helps do more AOE.

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Originally Posted by Gokudo83

If you lvl drg to 34 there is no need to sing tp songs for your brd

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Blood for blood is 34, Invigorate is 22.

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Originally Posted by Alhanelem

You're not supposed to have songs up constantly. You're supposed to have them up when the party needs them. The songs work fine, all of them are used (TP probably used the least but can be helpful sometimes), while I wouldn't complain if they were made stronger, I think they're fine the way they are.

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More songs = more time having songs up = indirect damage nerf.

bard tears !!