Currently, it is possible to use the Dungeon Finder to join an 8-person group, which includes two healers, which can end up both being Scholars. One of the more significant downsides to this is that the SCH class-defining heals place Adloquium, a shield which absorbs incoming damage but does not stack with other casts of Adloquium.
Problem: if a large amount of incoming damage prompts both scholars to cast Adloquium or Succor at the same time (eg: Titan stomps) then a quarter of the total healing potential is lost. Furthermore, such coordinated Scholars can do very little to restore the health to the entire group, as any further Succors are only providing half their intended benefit.
Solution: if an Adloquium shield effect is present on a target when another Adloquium shield would be applied, the first shield is converted into health and the target is healed that amount. This would allow twin-scholar DF-assembled Titan groups to better heal up the group after stomps.
Possible counter-argument: this, as written, could potentially make scholars too powerful in single groups, by spamming Adloquium or Succor and restoring more health than intended.
Solution to counter-argument: the shield-convert-to-health only occurs when the Adloquium shield effect currently on the target was placed there by a different scholar. This would ensure that a group with a single Scholar continues to function as it does currently, and even in a group with two Scholars, one could not use this feature to augment their own healing. In other words, the change would only assist two coordinated scholars when both are applying Adloquium shields.
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10-20-2013, 03:01 AMTelsiaSuggestion for fixing double-SCH without affecting single SCH balance.
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10-20-2013, 06:37 AMsharazisspecial
Would really love double sch fixed.
Convert adloquium/succor shields into extra healing if there is another sch shield on your target is a good idea. Probably the most balanced way to fix it
It basically turns the second sch adloquium into a weaker version of cure 2 and the second sch succor into medica.
Se could also just let 2 different sch shields stack. It depends on if they are able to implement the above fix or not. -
10-20-2013, 07:25 AMWeltende
I would like to think there's a way they could allow multiple Adloquium effects to stack, since from what I've noticed Adlo stacks with Stoneskin in a way that the shield from Adlo/Succor will absorb damage before Stoneskin will (this priority is likely because of the relative duration of each buff).
I wouldn't mind if Adloquium effects simply converted to raw healing without the caveat of having another scholar putting the existing shield on first. As was pointed out, at that point it's only slightly lower potency than a Cure 2 and even stronger if the critical bonus is kept intact. -
10-20-2013, 09:52 AMpeaches
This is actually an amazing solution - but I would like to see this applied to single Scholar heals as well. Yes, it would mean we could cure a ton with two Adlo's. But two Adlo's cost a lot of MP, probably on par with Cure II. Same with Succor. Yea, it'd be GREAT if two shields could stack. But when you need to actually get them back up to 100% health, a shield isn't going to help you, especially if they aren't taking damage. That's the issue with Bubbles, raw heals will always be better. A bubble is temporary, and can be wasted. A party wide Bubble is great, but I'd rather cure 500 to everyone, than cure 250 and bubble for 250. If the Bubble takes no damage, you're only getting a lame 250 cure.
Of course, they would never do that for single Scholars, so I guess I'd settle for the dual Scholar fix :P -
10-20-2013, 11:31 AMSyncness
If they can make same dots stack side by side, it is beyond me how they can't (or didn't) make same buffs stack - just for shields from different parties.
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10-20-2013, 11:47 AMGarnatian
The only thing that needs to be tweaked is Succor, Adloquium (the ability) is fine in double SCH. All they really need to do is increase Succor's potency if the Shield is present.
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10-20-2013, 10:53 PMMiiu
Love the idea @ OP.
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10-21-2013, 01:07 AMvpc
As a whm main and off-sch, I support this. No reason to shaft double scholar team while WHM hots can stack. Double scholar team should be able to sync as well as whm/wm, although neither should ever top whm/sch imo.
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10-21-2013, 12:59 PMCitizen_Thom
Because I'm loving playing Scholar...I've gotta say, yes please do what the original post suggests. And yeah, for balance, it's fine if it's an overheal with regards to enmity when the shield gets converted to health.
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10-22-2013, 08:47 AMValya
I don't like this. It makes double SCH play very similarly to SCH + WHM, turning the second SCH into a reactive healer at need --- which doesn't really respect the WHM "niche."
Honestly, rather than buffing double SCH, I'd rather nerf double WHM. Make it so that regens don't stack, and the Medica II HOT doesn't stack, and I think the "balance" issue goes away, and both niches are protected. -
10-22-2013, 08:52 AMMakuSCH/WHM is the best combo and the idle. I did have a Double SCH Titan that the other one was screaming because he "knew" it couldn't be done with out at least 1 WHM and he actually wanted them to get two WHMs PLUS him. He died after Heart, I finished solo. That being said:Quote:
Originally Posted by Valya
Nerfing double WHM is not the way to do this. Making double SCH work well together is the way to go. You can not ALWAYS get one of each and duty finder doesn't discriminate if the group has a WHM then they will get a SCH and so forth. All three combos must be able to work together. The OPs suggestion is NOT OP in anyway. It makes it so that two SCHs AoEs can do the job of 1 WHMs AoEs. It is an amazing idea. ^^ -
10-22-2013, 08:54 AMJonFarronThat still wouldn't be balanced, because Medica+Medica&Medica II+Medica>>>>Succor+SuccorQuote:
Originally Posted by Valya
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10-22-2013, 12:29 PMTelsiaYes, this is the point exactly. Unless the duty finder is going to force 1 WHM and 1 SCH rather than 2 "Healer" classes, there's going to be the possibility of double-SCH, and that needs to be addressed with a very specific fix to the aoe healing potential of double-SCH. I am fairly confident that the change I'm proposing won't make double-SCH better than SCH + WHM, so that organized groups will probably still favour having one of each. I'm merely looking for a way to ensure that DF groups are viable as assembled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Maku
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10-23-2013, 06:48 AMGotcha
Please take a close look at the job you are talking about.
WHM- Spells best suited to be main healer; long term shields, More potency in heals, has 2 hots, 3aoe heals, saint's, and 1 "last second" 100% heal.
SCH- Heals with the Aid of a pet; Short term shields best for mitigation of aoe, has the ability to dps without loss of healing, Able to boost party dps with pet.
(I am sure i missed a few points)
But Whm is always a healer, where as sch can dps and be secondary healer. WHM/Sch will always be the best team because it uses all the shields. WHM/WHM can work Anywhere but since the shields do not stack it takes more healing/mp for the same effect. Sch/Sch is a hard combination due to the loss of heal potency, although it can work if the party is not taking a lot of damage in a short amount of time (titan stomps) -
10-23-2013, 07:22 AMNoctrin
In every 8 man out except coil and arguably titan, 2 sch are completely fine. You only need 1 healer as long as people have any clue what they're doing. Reason why we have 2 healers is because for hard content, 1 of each is optimal. The reason why has been explained a million times -- but for coil turn 4 which is the hardest instance i have done, as a scholar, i do my job perfectly fine. For coil in general I can heal better ST and lower damage on big aoes, while the WHM heals the raid and the off-tank. If needed, with my pet and CDs i start healing for about 1800-2000 every gcd for very little mana. I can hit 3000-3400 if i need to burst per GCD +a slight delay from lustrate (so about every 2.6s) in raw healing. If i decide to go with aldo's, i lower it a bit but add a 800 shield on top so ~3000+~800hp shield not counting crits. Timing my CDs with tank CDs makes damage heavy fights doable. Those numbers put whm to shame, and having 2 scholars able to keep up aoe healing on top of godly ST heals would just be too much. In turn 1 the difference is extremely apparent as i can keep my tank up on the split significantly easier and more consistently.
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10-23-2013, 07:48 AMSlopOrion
I'm not quite sure what you are arguing for/against here.
First, WHM's shield aren't really "long-term" as they take maybe two hits. The longest the shield will be up is on the initial pull. In fact, most PLD will be casting this before big hits (i.e. Mountain Buster) anyway. Not to mention the fact that SCH also gets access to Stoneskin (albeit a weaker version) makes this a moot point.
SCH is a very good main healer. Embrace can be cast while the caster is moving, also our "oh, crap" button (instant 20% health) might not be as good as the WHM, but 1) you shouldn't plan on using it and 2) is much more viable for regular/non-"oh,crap" healing.
As for the AoE healing, SCH is all about preventing the damage, not outhealing it. A well placed Succor with Sacred Soil down will prevent a great deal of the outgoing damage. A Roused Fey Illumination -> Whispering Dawn -> Succor will fill the rest of the bars/protect from death easily. -
10-23-2013, 07:49 AMSlopOrion
The problem isn't which is "meant" to be a main healer (as both are entirely capable), the problem is which is good vs weak.
Obviously, the SCH/WHM group is gonna be the best as you are able to work with both jobs' strengths and cover their weaknesses. The WHM/WHM combo you are arguing against because of the lack of shield stacking is still a much better combo than SCH/SCH, because the AoE heals/HoTs stack. The point of the post is that NONE of the SCH stuff stacks (outside of double Eos - and I'm not sure her 20 and 40 moves stack). You can't double shield, you can't double buff (meaning you can't have one use magic and one use skill speeds). -
10-23-2013, 11:53 AMTelsiaQuote:
Originally Posted by Gotcha
Titan HM is available through the Dungeon Finder. The Dungeon Finder currently creates groups with two healers, including WHM/WHM, WHM/SCH, and SCH/SCH. The point of this post was to address the problem of DF-assembled dual-SCH parties on fights like Titan HM where their aoe healing is insufficient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noctrin
I suppose the other answer would be to alter the DF to force WHM/SCH pairings for DF groups of 8. -
10-23-2013, 06:48 PMNoctrin
Why would you use dungeon finder for titan? The odds of getting a competent group are so slim, i'd call it a waste of time. Not sure how it is on other servers, but the only reason people queue up df for titan on mine is to get some practice on the fight before joining an actual group.
The only issue i see is for dungeons which will require 16-24 etc.. where it might make more sense to stack white mages and only have 1 sch. -
10-30-2013, 01:23 AMCelsius
Wrong, we run double sch and are up to turn 5.
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10-30-2013, 02:10 AMSapphires
Double sch isnt 'weak' just cause your shields dont stack. Whm healing partner makes sch a bit lazy sometimes and fall into just casting succor.
People love to forget how powerful 2 rousable fairies with unlimited healing spam become in an 8man if you have 2sch.
2sch means you have 2 people that can rotate 'supervirus' and 'enhanced eye for an eye' , mana and threat is hardly an issue and the list goes on - its balanced, shield stacking or converting 2nd shield to heal/regen would be overpowered as hell.
If you cant win something like titan HM with 2 sch you are doing something terribly wrong. Pretty sure someone will be beating turn5 with 2sch soon also. -
10-30-2013, 09:15 PMGarnatian2 Rouse-ed Fairies? How about 2 Divine Seal-ed Regen + Medica II.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sapphires
2 Supervirus? How about Proshell + Virus?
Eye for an Eye... That ability is quite literally, worthless.
The issue isn't that double SCH isn't viable, it's that Double WHM is a lot better.