To everyone crying NERF

Why is it every time people don't like something they move straight to NERF it rather than balance other things by buffing them?
Stop it, please.

Your arguments are childish and as per usual the minority is crying the loudest, and if you think you aren't the minority go ask your general chat on their opinion of fates. I have spent a while now lurking the forums and seeing what people are saying and all it comes down to is people are upset that other players out leveled them or that the dungeons take to long because players don't know how to play their class, guess what both of those problems will still exist and won't change just because fates get nerfed.

There are numerous aspects to leveling -- fates, dungeons, leves, guild leves, grinding. Where there are five methods and one is out-of-balance, you reduce that one instead of raise four. Balancing levels is almost always done by reducing the contribution of one area. It's hard to argue that the experience gain in FFXIV is too slow in general.

It's simply a practical matter; nerfing is better. Not childish.

FATEs are great fun, I've had a better time chatting with people there than running dungeons, but it doesn't seem to me like FATEs create a challenging and nuanced gameplay. It's more akin to a swarm of locusts. I like the challenge of tagging mobs when I have few instant cast spells and competing to get gold, but when the gameplay actually implies that a white mage should cast stone instead of cure, you have to examine whether FATEs are an aspect of the game worth rewarding.

Did this really need another thead?

Simply put, nerfing/reworking one thing that's clearly way above every other alternative during the level-up path is a much more effortless way to diversify the experience. The alternative would be to rework everything else, which doesn't sound too easy. Fixing FATEs isn't too easy to do at the moment though. They just need to find a way to make the challenge proportionate to the XP it gives.

Sounds like someone's got something to lose, if the pro-"nerf" people get their way.

Buffing everything to match the outlier balance does not make.

I think the word everyone crying nerf is looking for is 'Please Balance'.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

Buffing everything to match the outlier balance does not make.

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Unless the things needing to match need a buff anyways. For example, guildhests. As they stand they're only worth doing once and then never touch them again. Even dungeons could use an xp boost. Also wouldn't be a bad idea to boost dungeon xp to make them worth running outside of the quest that takes you there. It's not as simple as bringing down one aspect of the game if the other aspects are in dire need of work in the first place. Fates could be fine while the rest simply isn't. And as such the stuff that isn't fine should be looked at and boosted instead of bringing down the thing that's fine to match the things that aren't fine. In this case other aspects aren't fine and making the good aspect match the bad ones leads itself to unbalance.

If fates didn't exist would anyone be 50 yet? If fates weren't in game the same mentality at end game would be in the whole game grind. Gogogo, your gear sucks /leave etc...

Let the rushers have what they want and let the rest enjoy the game how they want.

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Originally Posted by Pathios

If fates didn't exist would anyone be 50 yet? If fates weren't in game the same mentality at end game would be in the whole game grind. Gogogo, your gear sucks /leave etc...

Let the rushers have what they want and let the rest enjoy the game how they want.

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It's not about rushing. The biggest appeal of fates if after you get a class to 50. Before that they're only a little better then side quests if you don't have the bonus xp. But said side quests run out after you first get to 50 save for levels 1-20 which there are three cities worth.

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Originally Posted by GameGeeks

Unless the things needing to match need a buff anyways. For example, guildhests. As they stand they're only worth doing once and then never touch them again. Even dungeons could use an xp boost. Also wouldn't be a bad idea to boost dungeon xp to make them worth running outside of the quest that takes you there. It's not as simple as bringing down one aspect of the game if the other aspects are in dire need of work in the first place. Fates could be fine while the rest simply isn't. And as such the stuff that isn't fine should be looked at and boosted instead of bringing down the thing that's fine to match the things that aren't fine. In this case other aspects aren't fine and making the good aspect match the bad ones leads itself to unbalance.

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Leves and Guildhests? Yeah, they could use a bit.

Dungeons needing a boost? Not really. FATE's nullifying any need for gear out of them because zerging works? Definitely.

As it stands, FATE's are both the fastest and easiest way to level. It's easy enough to see that it's at the detriment to other parts of the game as well.

Gear isn't an issue while leveling. I've gone long stretches without updating gear. The crafted stuff on the market is more then enough to get you by for 5-8 levels even without doing fates. So the gear from dungeons are nice but far from needed. So I wouldn't put much weight on dungeon gear while leveling.

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Originally Posted by GameGeeks

Gear isn't an issue while leveling. I've gone long stretches without updating gear. The crafted stuff on the market is more then enough to get you by for 5-8 levels even without doing fates. So the gear from dungeons are nice but far from needed. So I wouldn't put much weight on dungeon gear while leveling.

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That's why I said any need. You generally have 20 other people zerging carrying you everywhere except Southern Thanalan. Your individual strength doesn't matter. If you are going through FATE's you can act like the rest of the game doesn't exist. You get XP, gil and seals from getting gold for hitting like 3 mobs.

They could fix it and make FATE's scale with the amount of players doing them but everyone is too scared of anything but spamming the AoE key.

I haven't exactly calculated it but I doubt dungeons are anywhere near as bad for XP as they are being made out to be. The difference is they depend on how competent the group is.

dont worry guys myself and many others have done enough dungeons and put up with more than a few clueless players were pretty much ready for the rest of you come and get carried.
its ok, dont be shy, its fun, you may even enjoy yourself

The problem with why people complain on NERFs are that the player base see what need balance quickly with hrs to 48hrs, But it takes them so long to fixed said Nerf problems. That people in grain the play styles into the community as whole. When they do nerf something so late. It then splits the community in half. The better course of action would be either to fixed something they plan on nerfing faster or increase other content and keep the stuff they thought of nerfing.

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Originally Posted by Tiraelina

I haven't exactly calculated it but I doubt dungeons are anywhere near as bad for XP as they are being made out to be. The difference is they depend on how competent the group is.

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Dungeons give slightly less experience while leveling than fate grinding. The major issue is that it takes to long to queue for them on most classes, they don't give fate amounts of money/seals, and like you said fates don't require the effort.

Nerfing fates buffs dungeons in that the duty finder will actually start seeing use.

The problem is with a full party of 8+ people you and faceroll each FATE without any effort. To resolve this issue. I would have fates scale with the number of each party member involved. That way you still have a base challenge no matter how many people
you bring.

Its simple as it is. Most MMOs out there gives you a single option to level: Quests. Do quests until you start mashing your head on the keyboard. Here we have 5 ways to level, so why complaint about one of then, since you have 4 other ways to play? People forget that this is a MMO. MMOs main content beguins at max level, how do you get to max level doesn't matter, you do it the way you want it. The majority of the players want to play the main content, so they use the fastest way to there.

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Originally Posted by Salazar00

MMOs main content beguins at max level, how do you get to max level doesn't matter, you do it the way you want it.

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Leveling does not have to be a chore that people dislike. In my opinion leveling up to higher end content should provide as much enjoyment as said content, sadly with the way the game is at the moment it doesn't. Changing things around COULD fix this why do people not want it to happen?

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Originally Posted by Salazar00

you do it the way you want it. The majority of the players want to play the main content, so they use the fastest way to there.

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Because FATEs are the Quickest Way to Level and unless Dungeons/Leves are adjusted to provide the same amount of XP there is nothing else people are going to do on their second/third trip to 50 than FATEs. Then you have the New Tanks in AK/WP still wearing level 20 gear. You have DPS who think they can AoE Trash in dungeons because that's how they got their XP for 50 levels. You have Healers trying to heal in Cleric Stance or focusing on DoTing.

You may not witness this as often but try seeing this through the eyes of a healer or tank who gets paired up with these players quite frequently.

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Originally Posted by Oxide_Vanwen

<<stuff>>.

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At level 50, people with crap gear or play style tend to improve fast or get removed fast. People naturally cannot stand newbies with horrible gear or horrible rotations.

It is one of the laws of humanity. Also as people improve, their patience for noobs tends to decrease.

Thus end game is an extremely hostile environment for bad players. Which make them leave after awhile, unless they are dense. In which case, BLACKLIST!!!

Also playing with an FC and/or making friends on your own server tends to help alot too.

Lastly bad players tend to die alot in my parties. I really have no idea why... :P Also keep on forgetting to res them.


A good player, can pick up a level 50 class and in 5 dungeons play with in a standard manner. After 10~20 dungeons, played well.

Class rotations in FF14 is not that hard to learn. Perfecting rotations, now that takes more skill and time. But then again, that is why we have FCs. To learn from. And to troll while one learns the class.

FATE grinding doesn't teach players anything, no group play, no skill rotations, no gear difference and no party play.

Eliminate any party bonus for FATEs, don't give EXP for fate mobs, half company seal reward and make FATE mobs strengh increase with the number of participants.
The FATE blobs will quickly get smaller when mobs start to onehit 5k HP tanks.

Fact is, FATEs require a nerf.

I'd rather they just buffed dungeon exp/rewards (gil and seals) and also buffed Levequests. The only nerf I can see FATES needing would be to require people to do more to get gold, and to nerf the rewards for anything less than gold (to make the difference between half-assing the FATE and doing your best in it more dramatic). Levequests really need to be buffed, as they're practically worthless.

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Originally Posted by Kyana

FATE grinding doesn't teach players anything, no group play, no skill rotations, no gear difference and no party play.

Eliminate any party bonus for FATEs, don't give EXP for fate mobs, half company seal reward and make FATE mobs strengh increase with the number of participants.
The FATE blobs will quickly get smaller when mobs start to onehit 5k HP tanks.

Fact is, FATEs require a nerf.

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Wow, this is a terrible idea. This would kill fates entirely. It would end up like garrison in FFXI. I think FATES are a good way to gain exp, especially for those of us who don't have an hour and a half to run a dungeon (Granted it usually doesn't take that long to finish). Let alone wait for the queue time to get in for those of us who are not a tank or healer.

They just need to scale fates with the number of people in a group. Fates should take longer then 30 seconds to complete. There has been many time by the time my chocobos get the fate its over. This needs to be adjusted to make then a challenge instead of a faceroll.

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Originally Posted by Siolenas

They just need to scale fates with the number of people in a group. Fates should take longer then 30 seconds to complete. There has been many time by the time my chocobos get the fate its over. This needs to be adjusted to make then a challenge instead of a faceroll.

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This. As someone who plays on PS3, sometimes even if I get to a fate with plenty of time, the enemies are all dead by the time they appear on my screen.

I personally don't like how fate's are the "main" method of leveling. I think that questing and dungeons should offer competative XP when being compared to farming fates also. I personally do not enjoy pressing stone mindlessly on a mob of whom I've already killed 42,000 times so that I can progress from level 42 to 50. Please make leveling more diverse.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ate-comparison

Nothing else to debate at this point. Fact is, FATE exp is ludicrously high. If this is working as intended I'd be surprised.

I could have sworn FATEs were originally intended to scale with the number of people participating, what happened to that?

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Originally Posted by Silverkin

I personally don't like how fate's are the "main" method of leveling. I think that questing and dungeons should offer competative XP when being compared to farming fates also. I personally do not enjoy pressing stone mindlessly on a mob of whom I've already killed 42,000 times so that I can progress from level 42 to 50. Please make leveling more diverse.

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I've never considered Fate's to be a main method of leveling, being a night time player, and only ever able to join fates this late, if by luck others were to be around. I'm not entirely sure what you mean by more competitive exp, or do you only count the final reward of dungeon exp you get for completing it, and not the exp all together from the monsters and bosses that you fight along the way? If anything, I'd consider dungeons to be a primary source of exp, and haven't seen any reason to buff dungeon exp for what should be considered a grind to end game (given how fast you can reach 50 as is).

As we all know, the current method is broken.

1) Fates are the main method of leveling alt classes/job because there are no quests to do, fate reward experieince is crazy high, if you can do a fate in 4 seconds get 30k exp, why wouldn't you? and dungeons ques are crazy high (because people are doing fates instead but how many fate groups do you see have tanks doing nothing but flash, then get to 50 go into their 50 dungeons and have no idea whatsoever how to get agro and hold threat)

2) The amount of time it takes people to get their first job to 50 is relatively quick, maybe 3 days, but because of the fates they get their alts (which are on the same character) to 50 in 1 day without doing a dungeon or even learning their class.

3) SE states they are going to buff dungeon exp to make it more viable, but fates are working as intended.. But how is that going to push people to level in dungeons when again you can get 40k in 4 seconds from fates? I don't think it will help unless they nerf fate experieince.

4) Another problem, your one character can do everything, which in turn will devalue all crafting. People who hit 50 now, have nothing to do, so they craft, once they get all of their crafts up, why are they going to go to the AH to BUY the final product when they can just make it themselves?

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Fixes?

1) SE needs to realize Fates are NOT working as intended and turn them from a zerg fest BY nerfing the experience gained from them, but if they nerf them they still need to make dungeon's viable, dungeons in fact need to be a better leveling choice over fates just to make people go to dungeons instead.

2) Well there is nothing that can be done about this now, this should have been considered and looked at in Beta and planning, so now we just have to deal.

3) Well that is again just a rework of 1.

4) Nothing can be done about this one either.

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Question:

Can anyone come up with a reason to make an alt? a good reason? All previous mmo's alts are either storage or the ability for us to play other classes and/or other crafts. Here there IMO is no reason to make an alt when your main can be everything and do everything.

This game's design does not have lasting power, IMO. It's a great game, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't have the ability without lots of updates and lots of large update to last.

2.1 is giving us.. free company housing? how does that help us want to stay in the game? Our launch day raid of crystal tower, well ok that is going to be fun but for how long? 3 nightmare mode primals in which why do we even want to fight them? Is there going to be something that forces us to fight or make us want to fight them otherthan achievements and bragging rights? A new primal, moogle king, well again that will be fun to do something new, but is there a reason to keep fighting or trying it after you beat it once? 2 new 50 dungeons, well again that is good, and fun but what is the reason to do them? Are they going to help us get better gear for our mains or are they just there for alt gear/tome farming? Treasure hunting (from what I hear it sounds like WoW archelogy), dailies?

There are things here in 2.1 but nothing really to make us stay, just enough to make us try things out for a bit, plus they are adjusting classes, the infmaous Bard nerf and melee buff, the food change (really do they need to make it last through death?)

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Originally Posted by Hiroradius

dungeons ques are crazy high (because people are doing fates instead

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*snip*

Can we please stop perpetuating this strange idea. The likelihood is that people queuing for dungeons represent a subset of the server population similar in class makeup to the overall server population. In fact, it may be tank-heavier due to the fact that dungeon queuing is way less painful for tanks. Eliminate fate xp and force everyone into dungeons and the queues will likely get worse for just about everyone. More of them will not change the average party composition; that's why it's an average. Additional samples will trend towards it.

I don't disagree that fates are broken. Nerfing them will not magically make more people roll tanks.

ok, so when/if dungeons become the preferred way, can we all promise not to complain about 'meanies in totorak speed runs ruining everything'?


SE needs to figure a way for fates to take longer to complete, imho. or even make it far, far more difficult to get gold reward. if the average fate took at least half its timer to complete (maybe even two thirds its time) the xp gain would be much more in line with gain from dungeons.

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Originally Posted by GeilLega

In fact, it may be tank-heavier due to the fact that dungeon queuing is way less painful for tanks.

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I would have to doubt that. Most people don't choose tanks as their first class, and then people grind FATEs for all subsequent classes due to efficiency. I saw a dozen ilvl20-geared PLD running around in FATEs in Northern Thanalan when I farmed there for my test. The queue times are based on the percentage of DPS willing to give up and leave the queue. There are too many DPS entering the queue, so at 1 hour queue time, enough of them give up that you reach equilibrium with the number of tanks who queue. I suppose, though, that you could make the argument that if dungeons outstrip FATEs, tanks will all queue into dungeons due to faster queue times, leaving the excess of DPS to be the only ones farming FATEs.