DPS Parser - ToS Violation?

There is a DPS parser that can be found online (no I won't name it/them) which hooks the FFXIV process to access the combat logs and parse your dps. Is it a violation of the TOS to use this/these tool(s)?

Hopefully it is a violation.

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Originally Posted by KraggyKor

Hopefully it is a violation.

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Because you don't like DPS meters?

actually a DPS parser is against the TOS

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Originally Posted by Terms of Service

You may not intercept, mine or otherwise collect information from the Game using unauthorized third party software.

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what a paerser does is hook onto the game process to read memory specific to the chat. this is collecting information from the game using unauthorised third party software. basically the software your talking about (i know what it is and called) was not made by SE and IS against the ToS.

it will be worse as they have plans to collect even more information from the game.

Overall, I have always hated parsers because cause it just stems elitism, idiots and basically people who care about the numbers at the end and not that a person is a better player than the numbers show.

I done a titan run on my BRD and didnt parse higher than the other BRD and was kicked coz I was not doing enough damage, however I never died, a clear example that parsers create idiots

Use parsers at your own risk.

Yes any DPS Parser can be used for elitism purposes. However a large amount of people use it for good purposes. For example, one of our raid groups was doing ADS2 last night, the group was a little melee heavy so normally they would clear left then boss. However the group was used to the mechanics of going right and doing the boss. So one of the members using the parser evaluated DPS on the boss to determine what kind of physical DPS loss they were looking at and if it was possible to even do the right side. When all was said and done going to the right side did affect physical damage but not as much as they had thought and they were still able to do the boss once the numbers were plugged in to the time they had, with time to spare I might add.

I know a large amount of people use parsers for personal improvement which is what they are meant for. Parser or no parser, those elitists will always be who they are and there is nothing you can do to change that. Even without a parser they will still boast about how they can pull threat or how they are the best or whatever the case may be.

Example: Running CM and the other tank who has less hp has one of those Elitists attitudes, did not like how I tanked things and he just tried to wipe us during the rest of the run because "hes the best" and "he knows everything and you have to listen to him". Dude talked down to everyone in the entire group and I ended up solo tanking, which is fine, no problem.

So all you nay-sayers basically say "idiots will be idiots, with or without douchebag aids".

A damage metre is a major help if you keep wiping to stuff like enrage timers, healers going oom due to too much time passing, etc.
With a damage metre you can see which of the dps isn't pulling their weight.
Don't forget, all the good damage metres in other games can also read how much healing output (especially effective healing), how much mitigated and unmitigated damage the tanks take...

If you want to do hardmodes, and be effective in raids (clearing the instance before 5 months have passed), some form of measurement tool is definitely needed.

Are athletes wanting to compete (at any level) also "elitist" if they use stopwatches, measure scores, how fast they run, etc?

It's against ToS IMO seeing how it's a 3rd party program.

I play MMOs to min/max, to test new strategies, be all I can be, etc. I approach my MMO play the same way an athlete approaches a sport - how can I be better? Do it faster? Hit harder? What stats, for example, are more impactful to my DPS? What the hell even is my DPS? Enter the Parser.

They can also show:
-if people aren't pulling their weight
-if the tank/healer is a dolt
-if there are inherent balance issues with the classes as they are now

This type of program exists in every MMO I've played yet. And I'm pretty sure its technically illegal in those games too - but no one really cares.

It is definitely not against the ToS. The line of the ToS that was quoted was referring to data mining, which has nothing at all to do with parsers. Parsers don't hook into anything, they just literally parse the text logs. If you would rather read the logs and do all the math yourself, then go for it, but just know that is exactly what parser does.

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Originally Posted by Beardfist

It is definitely not against the ToS. The line of the ToS that was quoted was referring to data mining, which has nothing at all to do with parsers. Parsers don't hook into anything, they just literally parse the text logs. If you would rather read the logs and do all the math yourself, then go for it, but just know that is exactly what parser does.

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This is what I figured anyway. If you had a pen, paper, calculator, and a stopwatch, and could either write really, really fast or took the time after each fight to calculate Damage Dealt divided by Time of Fight in Seconds, you would get an average... your DPS.

FFXIV parsers aren't even fully accurate because the raw log misses important things about DoTs - like critical tics.

Id like to know how parsers can even show dot damage. That is suspicious to me because dots are not reported by the client.

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Originally Posted by Beardfist

It is definitely not against the ToS. The line of the ToS that was quoted was referring to data mining, which has nothing at all to do with parsers. Parsers don't hook into anything, they just literally parse the text logs. If you would rather read the logs and do all the math yourself, then go for it, but just know that is exactly what parser does.

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Actually I think ffxiv parsers need to create their own logs (I know for a fact that at least one does). This is because the ffxiv logs do not contain timestamps. Without time you cannot calculate dps.

The parsers that exist are not accurate, and should only be used as a source of self improvement. Using a parser does not make people an elitist. It's what people do with the data from parsers, and how they treat others that make them elitist.

There are multiple ways you can use the parser within the TOS. You can always copy and past the combat log into the parser which can then sort the data for you. If that is all you are doing, I cant see how that could be considered mining data. What the ToS refers to as far as data mining is using 3rd party software to identify loot tables, hidden graphic models, ect. Sorting data in a text file is not harmful, and in no way damages the game.

Using the parser to view live combat data could be considered a violation, but I doubt SE is going to ban people for viewing a freaking combat log... I don't know of any recent mainstream MMO that has frowned upon a combat log parser.

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Originally Posted by Beardfist

It is definitely not against the ToS. The line of the ToS that was quoted was referring to data mining, which has nothing at all to do with parsers. Parsers don't hook into anything, they just literally parse the text logs. If you would rather read the logs and do all the math yourself, then go for it, but just know that is exactly what parser does.

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There is actually a text log the game stores in the savegame directories (along with screenshots) I don't know if the tool is actually reading this or the game memory, but the latter is certainly violating the ToS.

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Originally Posted by svann

Actually I think ffxiv parsers need to create their own logs (I know for a fact that at least one does). This is because the ffxiv logs do not contain timestamps. Without time you cannot calculate dps.

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Actually I'm pretty sure it does have a timestamp, it's just not a clock format

Code:

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gains the effect of Great Strides.5256D5FB122E::
gains the effect of Innovation.5256D600122E::
gains the effect of Inner Quiet.5256D601122E::
gains the effect of Waste Not.5256D602122E::

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Notice the increment hex value if you ignore the last two bytes. 52 56 D6 02 122E, these were 4 consecutive actions in between what I can only guess is markup the game understands. Upon checking a log file from another day I'm pretty certain the format is MM DD mm ss msns or something.

My Anti Virus intercepts and collects information about the game also.

It is a 3rd party software product as well.

Is that also a ToS violation?

If not, SE needs to define this issue in depth.

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Originally Posted by Yoseph

My Anti Virus intercepts and collects information about the game also.

It is a 3rd party software product as well.

Is that also a ToS violation?

If not, SE needs to define this issue in depth.

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The antivirus software does not hook the program, therefor it does not collect information from the game. If you want to get into the legal sense of what they mean, it means you can't extract or manipulate data that the game uses. The Antivirus does not work at that level, it scans files upon "access" and delays the game from opening the file until it says OK, it doesn't change it. Likewise at the network level the antivirus scans the flash applet they use for the authentication mechanism but doesn't change it.

The software the bots are using on the other hand are directly manipulating the software by hooking. The DPS Parser for all we know may be hooking the text output of the game. As far as what harm can it do... not much really, I'd say it's rather weak to ban someone for using such a tool unless that tool was directly changing the behavior of the player (Eg telling other players they aren't welcome because they do low DPS or whatnot.) In another game I played, players were rather fond of modding the game to get a combat power value that the game server transmitted to the client, but wasn't shown. So the mod changed the game to show it... and enabled a bunch of other cheaty hacks as well. The players that could see the combat power would literately not play with players who displayed "inferior" combat values and likewise would pick "Easy" PvP targets based on the combat power score. Just based on this alone I'd say it's a ToS violation if it can provide any realtime data from hooking the game that isn't readily available.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

There is actually a text log the game stores in the savegame directories (along with screenshots) I don't know if the tool is actually reading this or the game memory, but the latter is certainly violating the ToS.

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Yes I know, that is why I said that it read the text log. I know for sure that several of the parsers I have seen use this method and as you pointed out, there is indeed a timestamp on everything. The only semblance of being live comes from the fact that the log files are updated nonstop.

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Originally Posted by AntonIdas

Enter the Parser.

They can also show:
-if people aren't pulling their weight
-if the tank/healer is a dolt
-if there are inherent balance issues with the classes as they are now

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Wait, hold on, are you (you elite gaming athlete you) saying that you cannot identify when a tank or healer is being a dolt, or when a DPS simply isn't pulling their weight (or for that matter is pulling too much aggro) without an extra tool to tell you? What's next, let your iPhone and Siri do it?

Whatever happened to people using their brains? If you need a DPS parser to see when someone is doing crap damage, or blowing through their MP quickly, you obviously are not paying much attention while you play.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Wait, hold on, are you saying that you cannot identify when a DPS simply isn't pulling their weight without an extra tool to tell you? If you need a DPS parser to see when someone is doing crap damage you obviously are not paying much attention while you play.<snipped irrelevant text>

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Im interested to know how you determine when someone is "doing crap damage" without using a parser? Could you explain that please?

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Wait, hold on, are you (you elite gaming athlete you) saying that you cannot identify when a tank or healer is being a dolt, or when a DPS simply isn't pulling their weight (or for that matter is pulling too much aggro) without an extra tool to tell you? What's next, let your iPhone and Siri do it?

Whatever happened to people using their brains? If you need a DPS parser to see when someone is doing crap damage, or blowing through their MP quickly, you obviously are not paying much attention while you play.

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Because the hate meter is a totally inaccurate way to gauge dps, never mind that moves like Quelling Strikes are a cross-class ability. As for tanks and healers, I want to know how strong their peak heals are, how much healing the tank needs, how "spiky" the tank is - maybe they aren't popping cooldowns at the appropriate time and are sponging mp.

I want to quantify it, because gut feeling often has no basis on the parser results.

Unfortunately for some of the above posters, I'm more than happy to remove weak links from the parties when attempting something difficult. Hell, everybody vets gear sets when doing things like Titan HM or Coil - it's a waste of everyone's time to take someone who isn't geared yet, or can't effectively play their job, because there's only room for 8 people and everybody needs to be capable.

A third party parser program would be against the ToS.

And what need is there with a parser? People drew up nightmare stories and nightmare scenarios when I was still leveling, about how this, that and his grandma being "so hard unless you are geared". For instance AK, Garuda, Titan etc. I started doing them straight of the bat (except Titan) in the 50/55 class pieces, random collection of rings/necks/ears etc of different levels (28-40 some white non HQ and some pinks) and an ifrit weapon as a warrior tank. I've had no trouble whatsoever, AK has probably been the most simple dungeon there is so far (not counting zerg fest 8 man castrum and that other place where you can be half asleep most of the time).

The troubles I've had havent been healing, damage or tanking issues that a parser can show. It's been people issues, bad players that couldnt handle it even in the BiS gear. People that dps their brains out as healers, people that wont avoid AoE, people that cant follow simple connect-the-dot tactics. There arent enough option when it comes to gear or specs in this game to give a parser any real value. No optional traits or talent trees, just 30 attribute points and 5 optional skills (not many to pick from). Peoples reaction times are whats killing 8 man Titans, just like poor timed stuns or the lack there off kills Ifrit runs, but thats not something you need a parser to figure out.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

Wait, hold on, are you (you elite gaming athlete you) saying that you cannot identify when a tank or healer is being a dolt, or when a DPS simply isn't pulling their weight (or for that matter is pulling too much aggro) without an extra tool to tell you? What's next, let your iPhone and Siri do it?

Whatever happened to people using their brains? If you need a DPS parser to see when someone is doing crap damage, or blowing through their MP quickly, you obviously are not paying much attention while you play.

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Wait you are able to watch the drg in a highly moblie fight to see if hes clipping his dots and using jump at the right time. He can look like hes doing fine while flubbing 40% of his damage. Heck where you time the jumps in your rotation alone can change a drg dps by 5%

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Originally Posted by Glyini

Wait you are able to watch the drg in a highly moblie fight to see if hes clipping his dots and using jump at the right time. He can look like hes doing fine while flubbing 40% of his damage. Heck where you time the jumps in your rotation alone can change a drg dps by 5%

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This. So very this.

What's really funny about this, is that the DPS Parser in question was originally made for and has been used since FFXI. You would think that if said parser was considered illegal by SE, it would have been dealt with by now.

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Originally Posted by svann

Im interested to know how you determine when someone is "doing crap damage" without using a parser? Could you explain that please?

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It's simple, I watch the course of the battle and watch how long things take to go down, how many groups of adds come along and how much pressure I or the healer are under.

Look, you enjoy your game however you like, I don't really care, but I don't find much enjoyment in any game when it is reduced to a mathematical exercise in maximum efficiency for DPS. I've played a lot of games in my lifetime, and the most funI have had in any of them was when a fight went badly and yet we still pulled it out by the skin of our teeth. Highly efficient, fast, battles that are performed according to mathematical precision may turn you on, but for me, that's just running a program and not very much fun. I'll trust my judgement every day over a soulless piece of code.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

It's simple, I watch the course of the battle and watch how long things take to go down, how many groups of adds come along and how much pressure I or the healer are under.
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That doesnt tell me how you can tell which dps is slacking. OMG why cant you just be honest about it? You cant tell which dps is slacking without a parser. And maybe you dont care. Thats fine if you dont care. Play how you want. But be honest whatever you do. Dont say you can tell who is slacking when you cant.

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Originally Posted by Kosmos992k

It's simple, I watch the course of the battle and watch how long things take to go down, how many groups of adds come along and how much pressure I or the healer are under.

Look, you enjoy your game however you like, I don't really care, but I don't find much enjoyment in any game when it is reduced to a mathematical exercise in maximum efficiency for DPS. I've played a lot of games in my lifetime, and the most funI have had in any of them was when a fight went badly and yet we still pulled it out by the skin of our teeth. Highly efficient, fast, battles that are performed according to mathematical precision may turn you on, but for me, that's just running a program and not very much fun. I'll trust my judgement every day over a soulless piece of code.

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FYI, all battles in this game are based on this kind of precision. Especially once you get to the raids from the way they talk about Coil, if you don't care for that type of precision, then I would suggest you not try raiding.

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Originally Posted by svann

That doesnt tell me how you can tell which dps is slacking. OMG why cant you just be honest about it? You cant tell which dps is slacking without a parser. And maybe you dont care. Thats fine if you dont care. Play how you want. But be honest whatever you do. Dont say you can tell who is slacking when you cant.

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You can tell who is slacking because either they are taking too much damage and need to be raised the most often OR the tank takes too much damage making the healer unable to heal the DPS's taking damage.

The game really does boil down to a simple strategy of:
a) Tank is to take all damage
b) Healer is to heal only the tank
c) DPS is to avoid taking all damage

A party with 1 tank and 1 healer and 6DPS is going to try speed-run by removing the safety of having two healers. You're right you probably can't tell which DPS is slacking in this configuration because this configuration lets 2 DPS slack while doubling the work required of the tank and healer.

Personally I think if you need any tool or service not provided by the game itself to play the game, then you're just a bad gamer. This goes equally for botters, spammers, gil buyers, people who multiclient/multi-box, game modifications, etc. Likewise if the game developer (particularly in freemium games, but subscription games are just as bad) makes certain necessary things only available by paying extra, then the game is broken by design (eg mounts, inventory capacity, "revive right here",etc) The worst thing that FFXIV does is not providing a mount before joining a Grand Company, but if you bought the collecters edition you got one.

The parser i know reads the logs available in the character's directory. It works even when the game is not running. It's like opening them with notepad.
And dots cannot be parsed but estimated. The server sends you a total of the dots applied to the mob from all the players every tick, so even if they were in the log, it wouldn't tell you the dot of a single ability.

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Originally Posted by KisaiTenshi

Personally I think if you need any tool or service not provided by the game itself to play the game, then you're just a bad gamer

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So if I try to gather precise info I'm a bad gamer?
Go tell the same to the car racing world. I bet they tune their cars following their feelings.

A lot of people argue "did you kill the boss or not" and then "does it matter what your dps was". Well to make an analogy, it's like taking a formula 1 car to the racetrack that isn't equipped with a speedometer and saying, "well did you cross the finish line"...

Dps meters are great tools. No, they're not just for determining who does the highest/lowest dps(though that is one of its best features), it's also for looking at who is taking the most/least damage, and then watching what each one of them are doing for certain mechanics(which is its best feature). They are fantastic tools, to say otherwise is naive.

Yes, they can be used to badger and intimidate (typically newer) players and to point fingers at "who is doing low dps" or who is "taking too much damage", etc but you nay-sayers have to keep in mind that these people exist whether or not DPS meters exist. These people are still going to badger and intimidate regardless.



And yes I want one to know how much DPS I'm personally doing. It's great way to determine if something I've changed recently (such as rotation for certain fights or positioning, etc) is effective.

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Originally Posted by Beardfist

It is definitely not against the ToS. The line of the ToS that was quoted was referring to data mining, which has nothing at all to do with parsers. Parsers don't hook into anything, they just literally parse the text logs. If you would rather read the logs and do all the math yourself, then go for it, but just know that is exactly what parser does.

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Actually the one that the OP is on about actually gets the information by hooking on to the FFXIV process and gathers information from the memory. it also has plans to gather alot of information from the game that is not available from logs and then supplying that information to a central database.

The parser that the OP is talking about IS against the ToS

Whoa some of you people are taking it way too seriously. The DPS parsers are and always have been excellent tools as well as create some FRIENDLY competition in a raid group which results in overall dps increase. I do agree you cant always go by who is number 1 in the group. For example #1 DPS took 16k damage on a coil fight, however #2 took 1k damage in a coil fight. I would still be talking with #1 about trying to pad the meters and not evading damage. It would be a friendly conversation and give the #1 guy something to strive for, being #1 with lower damage taken.

You don't have to get a DPS parser if you don't want to, but honestly if you are running with someone that has one its not a bad idea to ask what your dps is and try a few things to improve it and then ask again. In my raids I don't really care what anyones DPS is as long as they are trying hard to win and the boss is dying. I really would only use it to monitor damage taken and possibly over healing(0-30% overhealing is acceptable).

Just like I tell the guys I raid with, if you get a DPS parser use it for self improvement and don't worry about comparing against the rest of the DPS. For example, a bard is continuously helping with mana return though this does affect his dps. Everyone understands this in my groups and no one hates on said persons damage. On the other hand I have a guy doing close to 300dps which he managed to get that high using a parser for self improvement and he strives to keep it up there since he knows where his peak is. Super friendly dude, he doesn't brag or belittle people as he is only using it to monitor his performance.

There seems to be a lot of disagreement among the community whether this/these tools are allowed. Can SE please answer this once and for all?

It sounds like cheating to me.

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Originally Posted by LadyVaJedi

It sounds like cheating to me.

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It's cheating if the tool did things like doing actions for you or making you automatically avoid damage, or any other direct advantage over other players. These tools do not do anything like that, just provide information in an easier to read format than the combat log.

This is just like the speeruns, people always want to ban whatever methods they don't happen to like. In this case, it usually happens because *"too low DPS" kick* is totally a parser's fault.

It is true that DPS parsers are used by people who use it to harass DDs for doing too low DPS, but they are also used by people who just want to see how much damage people are doing for improvement purposes.

From what I have seen, it is usually BLMs who end up being harassed for too low DPS. These people are either trolls or they forget the fact that BLMs can't move when casting, this is compensated by a higher damage output, but when you add bad enough luck and get constantly targeted with AoEs, you are almost inevitably doing much less DPS than normally. >_>

I just wonder what happened to playing games for fun instead of putting more work into them than your daytime job.

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Originally Posted by Ervin

I just wonder what happened to playing games for fun instead of putting more work into them than your daytime job.

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You've got to start thinking of mmo's as modern day hobbies. They take substantially more time than other game types. Either play a lot, or fall behind.

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Originally Posted by Ervin

I just wonder what happened to playing games for fun instead of putting more work into them than your daytime job.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTJQTc-TqpU
What's not funny for you can be funny for someone else

It's funnier to play a game or watch a "let's play" on youtube? Some people prefere the latter.