Player Courtesies do they even exist in this game?

Hello everyone,

Something has been grading on my for a while regarding the way people act towards one another in this game. Mostly it comes from the "farm runs" people have ambition to complete the dungeons as fast as possible, now i have been 50 for a while and also like to do the 30 min cm run, the 10 minute Infirit they are nice however we have new level fifties coming to the foray and do not know anything and maybe afraid to speak up. So when things go bad people either "A" jump ship or "B" just berate and belittle the person or persons who errors. It just reminds me of the world of Warcraft community and it saddens me to see this happening here, the game is really good however the public experience has been horrendous at 50.

Mistakes happen and do not expect anyone to be perfect but we all actually "pay" to play the game and remember there is another person at the other side of the screen.

I guess it says more about the immaturity of this community. Sadly. As I was hoping for a more mature community for MMO for once.

Yes they do exist, I promise. I hope MVP rating will help some of the civility but maybe it is wishful thinking on my part because I am optimistic. Been fortunate to meet many very polite and considerate people in this game yet I am still below level 50 so we shall see when its time to ding 50 and try some DF at that level, if it is different. Still, uneasy about it and recently decided to slow down exp on main class, focusing on crafts in hopes that things will ease up when the game is patched, improved and goes through the normal game evolution cycles.

Much like with reality and the way the kids (unbelievable I actually get to say that at my tender 27y) these days behave when you meet them in person, I am not surprised the internet is like this...

What baffles me are people older than me acting like spoiled brats or like their sole purpose in life is to make others feel inferior to their totally hardcore achievements. /shrug

In any case... as much as we would like everyone to be friendly or at least stfu sometimes... society is bad, the internet is worse and there is no turning back. Developing morals and manners is the responsibility of parents, teachers and society and can't be done within the anonymity of the internet. (vote-to-kick for the internet? no?)

Sorry pal, I feel your pain. Throw me a friendly /wave if we ever meet in DF, I'll /wave back. :)

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Originally Posted by Somi

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Sorry pal, I feel your pain. Throw me a friendly /wave if we ever meet in DF, I'll /wave back. :)

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Hey same here, if you and OP see me in DF or in your case on same server Somi, say hi! I will too. :)

The below 50 community is awesome ... hell i have lower level toons and que the lower dungeons to help out and its been great ... the level 50 community is horrid.

I have no plans of hitting 50 any time soon, this being one of the reasons. Endgame (not only in this but most MMOs) is toxic and completely turns me off the game.

Maybe I have just been fortunate, but yet to run into many issues with this myself using the DF. Worst has been wanting people to skip CS in a story dungeon. Can usually get a good idea of the attitude of people in the run if just say hello at the start.

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Originally Posted by Somi

Much like with reality and the way the kids (unbelievable I actually get to say that at my tender 27y) these days behave when you meet them in person, I am not surprised the internet is like this...

What baffles me are people older than me acting like spoiled brats or like their sole purpose in life is to make others feel inferior to their totally hardcore achievements. /shrug

In any case... as much as we would like everyone to be friendly or at least stfu sometimes... society is bad, the internet is worse and there is no turning back. Developing morals and manners is the responsibility of parents, teachers and society and can't be done within the anonymity of the internet. (vote-to-kick for the internet? no?)

Sorry pal, I feel your pain. Throw me a friendly /wave if we ever meet in DF, I'll /wave back. :)

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^ This. Nothing to add.

I have had good and bad experiences, unfortunately mostly bad. Case in point, last night during a CM run the tank runs out and aggros ALL the mobs from the start, including the mobs you are not supposed to pull. He did not seem new, so I am immediately thinking he's a troll. Everyone wipes right off the bat. When we do get to the first boss he says BBL and just stands there. I politely explain to the group that I am not willing to carry this guy through the run and I will take the 15 minute lockout. I wish them all good luck and apologize. Then one of the other members said "fine, you are worthless anyway". I find about 25% of my runs with DF are good and 75% are bad. May just start running purely with FC from this point.

I don't experience any (well, 95% of the time) of these problems. Maybe because I'm playing on a JP server :) Yep, that is why :)

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Originally Posted by Dmyankee

Mostly it comes from the "farm runs" people have ambition to complete the dungeons as fast as possible, ... however we have new level fifties coming to the foray and do not know anything and maybe afraid to speak up. So when things go bad people either "A" jump ship or "B" just berate and belittle the person or persons who errors. It just reminds me of the world of Warcraft community and it saddens me to see this happening here, the game is really good however the public experience has been horrendous at 50.

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This is what happens when games are designed less like MMOs and more like single player / segmented small co-ops and when a significant portion of the player base is only there to play the game as a thinly disguised Skinner Box, for whom things like challenge, interaction, gameplay, etc are a distant second (in the case of 'challenge', actually considered a hindrance), with game design focused on that.

I agree.

I came here hoping for a better community. Wow, was I wrong. I play to have fun and to meet new people, not get emotionally abused from some sick, sad kid with mommie issues.

I love the game and am having a blast, but I'm leaving because I just don't see this community getting better ever.

Maybe at my age I'm just too relaxed to be playing mmos, but after 13 years of mmo gaming, what "accomplishments" I "achieve" here does not define me.
It just breaks my heart to see people treat each other in this manner.

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Originally Posted by Dmyankee

It just reminds me of the world of Warcraft community and it saddens me to see this happening here, the game is really good however the public experience has been horrendous at 50.

Mistakes happen and do not expect anyone to be perfect but we all actually "pay" to play the game and remember there is another person at the other side of the screen.

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It seems like the majority of these lamentations could be solved by not using the Duty Finder anymore, and putting a little effort into socialization and grouping with people on your server. Add people you like to your friend's list/Link Shell/Free Company, and in a couple of weeks, you may find your problem solved. At the very least, it will be more productive than flexing your superiority on a forum.

And no, the MVP system won't change anything. "MVP me or I'll afk" "MVP me or I'll wipe us". Sure you could always lie to the person begging for it but then we're not any better than the guys who are telling lies, insults and other stuff atm.

I think most of this depends on the tanks. In my runs I typically help out by explaining what is going on. Why I'm doing what I'm doing. This tends to keep people focused. As I explained to a new tank last night - people will always complain. Just ignore it. I realize for dd or heals this can be harder. But really the only easy way to combat this disrespect is to just ignore it. The first time tank was heckled by one person. I told him to ignore it. To focus on tanking. I explained the fights. He continued to get heckled because he struggled with aggro. Told him he was doing fine. Ignored the heckler.

He made it through. Heckler was ignored. Group stood up for the new tank. I think he learned a lot. Turned a negative into a positive. Just need to stand up for people. One heckler doesnt mean anything when one person believes in you.

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Originally Posted by Dmyankee

Hello everyone,

Something has been grading on my for a while regarding the way people act towards one another in this game. Mostly it comes from the "farm runs" people have ambition to complete the dungeons as fast as possible,
...
It just reminds me of the world of Warcraft community and it saddens me to see this happening here, the game is really good however the public experience has been horrendous at 50.

Mistakes happen and do not expect anyone to be perfect but we all actually "pay" to play the game and remember there is another person at the other side of the screen.

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A number of elements work to promote the kinds of communities the speed levelers have found:

• The Duty Finder tool making random groups. No need or even ability to use social skills in forming groups.
• No account wide accountability. You can't even tell what server or FC a PUG-mate comes from.
• Cannot friend cross server, so Duty Finder groups are more or less forced strangers.
• Events/Fates on predictable cycles to feed farmers.
• No benefits built in for helping random strangers in the open-world.
• No ability to rez random strangers in the open-world, encourages just sitting there as someone else is stuck.
• Mob tagging exists, even if limited to 'leve' / quest mobs - you cannot help even if you want to.
• Vertical Progression system - encourages an "I'm better than you" mentality.
• Vertical Progresson system - encourages a need to keep farming up the 'latest / best' gear rather than the 'explore and make stories' situation seen in horizontal progression MMOs (City of Heroes / GW2 / soon EQNext).
• Trinity based combat model - sets up roles that do not have equal popularity, allowing the less popular roles to dictate play / enjoyment for players on more popular roles.
• Lack of build variety - one build for each class, so there is not much meta to explore, and usually a "right way" that you need to follow.
• Discouragement of alts - less ability to just sit out on another character to de-stress, and less ability to make a alternate theme character. Makes a roleplay community less viable (and such communities tend to be more social, and thereby make the servers they take over more friendly).
• Seemingly uninvolved community-managers so the inworld community feels 'unpoliced'. This might just be perception, but perception is often more important than reality.
• The English servers are the "foreigner" servers, and we can feel it. I'm sure this exact same issue happens in other MMOs for the Asian / European servers. Here, its happened to the English servers - and we're a community not used to that in MMOs we buy from western shops.

With a list like that you'd think I'd hate this game, but I actually like it a lot. I just have to work to avoid certain pitfalls the above list has built into it... and I know that eventually, the community will reach WoW levels and one won't even be able to "hide" in a good FC... But for now, its a very solid replacement for my former WoW fix.


Short version:
Duty Finder, Trinity, and Vertical Progression - will all eventually "kill" community here. So while I love the game I've recently landed on, I know the ride won't be as long as it was for me in WoW (where I held on for 7 years) - those things will eventually be more pressing than the benefits. It just becomes a question of how long can that 'eventually' be pushed out for each person.

.

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Originally Posted by MStowastiqVahlshdeh

Yes they do exist, I promise. I hope MVP rating will help some of the civility but maybe it is wishful thinking on my part because I am optimistic. Been fortunate to meet many very polite and considerate people in this game yet I am still below level 50 so we shall see when its time to ding 50 and try some DF at that level, if it is different. Still, uneasy about it and recently decided to slow down exp on main class, focusing on crafts in hopes that things will ease up when the game is patched, improved and goes through the normal game evolution cycles.

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Frankly, I just ask for help, and am very pleasantly surprised when I get it and we succeed. People truely want to help, not to do my job but to help me accomplish it.
Hoping perhaps I will learn a bit more about tanking and pickup a bit more cross class skills with mrd. My my 3 H's! Is that allowed? :]

Its just sad that we'd need some stupid reward thing just to get people to act like anything better than rabid savages. Honestly, I just wish theyd get banned for acting up. Much better option IMO than having some would be jerk smiling through their teeth at everyone pretending to be nice for the points.

Isn't there like a /curtsey ?

I normally breeze right through AK but yesterday I had 4 groups that couldn't get passed demon wall.

No cursing, not arguing. I was just helping them learn. Not everyone is an asshole but when this game requires you to do these dungeons over and over and over it tends to make people a little nuts to begin with. :P

If someone says they're new to a dungeon/instance and they get flak for it I'll lie and say I'm new too, you wouldn't believe how many people will calm down if they realise their tank is new. They seem less likely to ragequit if they know they have to wait a long ass time for a requeue by dropping out.

It depends on the person on a case by case basis. Last night I saw a shout in RT for a AK run. Joined the party, was told that the tank never ran it before, myself and the other DPS were cool with that. (he had a pocket healer) I helped him out by letting him know which mobs were CCable and marking first kill targets for him, how to avoid certain abilities from certain mobs, boss mechanics, stuff like that. First boss was a breeze, Demon Wall took a few tries after trying some different adjustments, and the last boss was easy peasy. Wish the guy had gotten more upgrades as it was clear everyone else was already AK/DL geared.

Some people just have this rush rush rush me me me mentality and aren't capable of taking a step back and helping out their fellow player, instead insulting them or just dropping groups altogether just because it might take a little bit longer. It's hard for people to improve if people aren't willing to help them do so.

I know people have run AK and other things until their eyes have bled and just want to get it over with, but taking the time to help someone one day may come back to benefit you later on, especially in the case of a local pickup group.

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Originally Posted by Somi

Much like with reality and the way the kids (unbelievable I actually get to say that at my tender 27y) these days behave when you meet them in person, I am not surprised the internet is like this...

What baffles me are people older than me acting like spoiled brats or like their sole purpose in life is to make others feel inferior to their totally hardcore achievements. /shrug

In any case... as much as we would like everyone to be friendly or at least stfu sometimes... society is bad, the internet is worse and there is no turning back. Developing morals and manners is the responsibility of parents, teachers and society and can't be done within the anonymity of the internet. (vote-to-kick for the internet? no?)

Sorry pal, I feel your pain. Throw me a friendly /wave if we ever meet in DF, I'll /wave back. :)

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And some people tend to blame the game for this. Seriously, I don't see how the game system can possibly create that kind of people, they were shitty before they played the game!

OP: I've had runs when most of the party did a great job and I always like to congratulate the efforts of each party member before I leave an instanced dungeon. I've had rushies, I've had careless users (that think I've got a magical aggro buttom) and I've had people that, after we finish the dungeon, they just leave without saying a word. It doesn't hurt to be polite. Also, I always call out people who try to interrupt other's fun, by trying to force them to skip CS and stuff.

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Originally Posted by Orophin

*snip*

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Seeing your post gives me hope for my ongoing adventure to level 50 and all the end-game content. :)

Not the communities fault. Its how the game is setup. Duty finder should make new people group with other newbies. Farming main story runs is just asking for trouble. Its silly.

Most of players at lvl 50 are sorely focused on 1 thing, speed running and getting a perfect* character. They have no manners and instead of adding constructive criticisms of others and trying to help their newer team members out they harass, berate and often times bully these players. They seem to have forgotten somewhere down the line that the sole intent of this game is to have fun. I have actually been berated and insulted for simply trying to have fun, yes, fun. For mocking the Bosses with humor upon dying or simply saying a joke or 2. They seem to have forgotten an important aspect of every MMO, the social aspect. That of being amicable and courteous to their lessors and respectful and stern to their equals. No one is better than anyone in this game. There isnt a board on games site that says These are your lord and masters and they rule over the newb fodder so suck it up and swallow all the disrespect.

Nope, no courteous people in this game. All joking aside. The problem is that you notice or remember the ones that were asshats. The ones that weren't just slide on by. So unless someone is actually vocal in helping you, you will most likely only remember the bad people.

That being said, courteous is somewhat of a subjective term right? Depends on what criteria you hold people to when you move them into categories. Plenty of people are pretty mute when they play this game, but that doesn't mean they are courteous or they're rude. I find that this game has more mute players than anything.

However between what I encounter more; courteous players as opposed to dicks. I meet more dicks.

Unless you meant player courtesies to be something else.

Yeah the majority of players I meet tend to be dickish but there are a few Gems. Recently I was walking in Uldah and encountered to female characters posing in swim suits in the waterfalls next to the GC. I just posed for a pic and the asked if I wanted to join. I went put on my swim suit and jumped in and we pretty much spent an hour doing that.

A few hours later I joined their Vent, got to know them and now we help each other out when ever we can. I joined a good free company that are Wow Vets who honestly try to enjoy the game and have fun. I also try to be the first foot forward in helping people. If im traveling and I see someone dead Ill rez them. If someone is in a levequest and dying Ill heal them to help em out. If its regular mobs Ill tank it for em to give em a chance. I often get a Ty or Tnx and just bid em farewell and go on my merry way. Im a Tank so its unusual to seem me casting heal protect and rez all as a back up. But idc I do it because its common courtesy, If I just died I would love a passer by to rez me or heal me before I die, and to an extent it has happened. As for the duty finder, I stay far away and kill it with fire. I usually get stuck in speed runner groups or groups of hardcore players who cant abide an idle mistake.

I have had players quit in the beginning of an instance because my stats dont match their expectations. Queue's are becoming harder to find because no one wants to Tank em or Heal them just to get treated like garbage or harassed. Thats why Tanks and Healers will get instant Queues as opposed to DPS' which exist in such a quantity that their waits can go for 45 mins to hours. I had a guy quit mid run on my party because he didnt get a loot drop he wanted. It was a full mage party aside from me he was a scholar and was missing 1 item in his Battlemage set, we had a summoner and a BLM. The blm got the item through need, he quit. Then when we beat the dungeon the same item popped up again.It gets sad after a while. Sorry for triple post stupid text limitations ^^

Asking for polite and courteous members inside an online community is like trying to rent a clown that does not drink. Anonymity + Audience = DBag