question about whm/cnj?

how come i never see them refresh stoneskin on the tank? as a sch im excited about the idea of stacking stoneskin and adloquium freeing me from the tunnel vision i sometimes get on the tank. my lustrate heals 1000+ on most tanks and stoneskin would eat about the same damage on a whm.

At 50 it's a big MP sink during a boss fight, and the cast timer is long. I believe (could be off) it's about 266 MP for one Stoneskin. The cast timer is long, and on some encounters it basically saves you 1 hit and then it's down again. Stoneskin DOES help with the DPS, so if I have extra MP I can throw them one, but unless I'm running with a warrior tank with 11k HP, stoneskin is low on the priority list.

Stoneskin doesn't stay on it gets used up after a set amount of damage and the higher level dungeon you get the quicker that damage is taken. Tanks will use stoneskin up in a couple of seconds. Not worth casting it over and over. For some bosses it's worthwhile using it more than once on the tank but most of the time it's just to leave on the DPS so if they take a hit by accident it won't damage them much. Same with having it on yourself.

I just posted on the threat generation post for WHM, see below link.

I have been experimenting applying stoneskin a lot during boss fights, it does cost a lot of mana but I have been casting regen less, making less overheal and having to top up the tank only if he takes a big hit.
Lets say it seems to me that Stoneskin avoids sending Cure for those small damages and having a regen healing a full life tank.It is even better when in 8 players raids where you can topup everyone with stoneskin while the other healer helps on curing small damage, at least you dont have to wait so see who will be the next victim and have to throw an emergency heal while the tank takes this unwanted 2500k hit^^. It would be more like "prevention type" healing.

I'll keep on playing this way to see how it goes.Comments are welcome.

see here

Casting Stoneskin doesn't pull anywhere near the same amount of hate as casting Regen, so I can understand switching to spamming Stoneskin rather than Cure if you're pulling ahead in the hate table for some reason.

Whilst levelling PLD up, I've tended to throw a Stoneskin on myself after each group of mobs unless there's a WHM in the group (their SS is more powerful due to traits, but mine's the same as a SCH)
I'll sometimes use it on myself mid-fight if I've got plenty of hate as an extra mitigation cooldown, particularly whenever the mob is pausing to cast an AoE/Cone and I've already sidestepped out of the way - less chance of being interrupted.

i love keeping stoneskin on both tanks and the other healer, its like a health buffer too thats gonna stop someone getting spiked down, and if theres 2 healers they often both heal the same target so i'd rather let the other guy do the heal and i'll do the buff

Stoneskin:
Absorbs damage up to 18% of target's Maximum HP.
Cast time: 3.0 (without spell speed)

Lustrate:
Restores up to 20% of target's Maximum HP
Cast time: Instant

Cures/Physik I can't so easily compare to, since would have to know how much a typical heal restores. Clearly we can see that Lustrate is better in terms of getting health to the target though - assuming the Aetherflow is available.

Suppose WAR 7500 HP and PLD 6000 HP. Then your Stoneskin "heals" for 7500*0.18=1350 or 6000*0.18=1080. Haven't played my WHM in a week or 2, is that more or less than a Cure? Cure II? And Cure, Cure II, Physik all cast in 2.0 sec instead of 3.0 for Stoneskin. Not sure on mana at the moment, but Stoneskin is pretty high.

The value of Stoneskin comes from 2 things:
- It can increase beyond the targets Max HP.
- It has lower threat than some other heals.

Just as a standard WHM heal on the tank... Nope.

I actually use stoneskin a lot. It's usefull when 2 or 3 party members are taking damage, I will throw a stoneskin at the tank then heal the others. It is a great damage mitigator - if only briefly. I find it more effective than media if only a few need healing. As far as mp costs? use shroud of saints as much as possible. If not, you can find yourself low on mp even if you don't use stoneskin.

Stoneskin is neat, but in the end, it's faster and more efficient to just cast cure. Although, I'd be willing to use it more often if it was a group buff with a higher mana cost!

Talking about efficient healing, you would not use stoneskin at level 50 during the fight, unless you are expecting a big hit on your tank like mountain buster.
Or somehow you have spare mana to do so. It is more effective to use cure properly while not over aggro.

Some disadvantages.
1. high mana cost vs hp saved. compared to heals.
2. Long cast time.

SS is a situational spell. Its high MP cost and slow cast time makes it unwise to spam. A cure costs less, can heal for more then SS can absorb (usually), has a chance to crit heal, and can trigger a free cure II cast. There are rare occasions where this may not be true, but for the vast majority cures are a better use of MP. That doesn't mean SS doesn't have merits or it's uses, so casters will have to "feel" out their group and make a judgement call based on time, aggro, and MP spent SSing group members versus outright curing them. Most cases, SS is a good pre-pull spell and good casters can refresh it as a fight is ending without stopping the group's progress. Definitely not a "one size fits all" kind of spell though so healers will have to use their heads when it is and isn't a good idea to use it mid fight.

I cure for ~935 +/- 3% that costs 133 mana for a 1.94s cast and results in a HPS of ~498 and HPM of 7.27. You can adjust this with an overhealing coefficient of around 15-20% to yield 420/6.15 respectively.

SS costs 266 Mana for a 3s cast, 18% on Tanks HP. It is 100% Efficient (Due to being a shield) and you are likely to NOT override your previous stoneskin. For the same HPS, the tank would have to have 20440 hit points. For the same HPM, the tank would have to require 9132 HP.

However, due to the fact that as tank % injury decreases, the amount of healing efficiency decreases, thus stoneskin IS a superior choice for instances when during the next "2" seconds, HP will not drop below the threshold...

I find that stoneskin is useful if you don't want to get hate or want to shield a person before a big hit. Stoneskin either don't generate hate at all or it is not really noticable but its better to shield the tank at the beginning of the fight then to trow a cure of 2.
Once you're futher in the battle the casting time is too long to make it very useful unless you know some big attack is coming then it might help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zezeba

I cure for ~935 +/- 3% that costs 133 mana for a 1.94s cast and results in a HPS of ~498 and HPM of 7.27. You can adjust this with an overhealing coefficient of around 15-20% to yield 420/6.15 respectively.

SS costs 266 Mana for a 3s cast, 18% on Tanks HP. It is 100% Efficient (Due to being a shield) and you are likely to NOT override your previous stoneskin. For the same HPS, the tank would have to have 20440 hit points. For the same HPM, the tank would have to require 9132 HP.

However, due to the fact that as tank % injury decreases, the amount of healing efficiency decreases, thus stoneskin IS a superior choice for instances when during the next "2" seconds, HP will not drop below the threshold...

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Thanks for putting some numbers on the Cure that I was too lazy to look up myself.

As a reasonably well-geared Warrior, I hit 7600 HP currently. I'm sure 8000-8500 is possible with currently-in-game gear. So the tank HP numbers there are clearly unattainable at the moment. You didn't mention your approx gear level though: the efficiency of Cure would go up or down based on weapon, Mind, and Determination I believe.

As for that last sentence, wow. It took me a full minute to comprehend. I think it says "If you would overheal with Cure, then Stoneskin is better option." Uhh, yep. Agreed.

A paladin healing might prefer Stoneskin I suppose. Just because their Cure sucks badly.

A useful way to look at SS is as a spell that restores 18% of the tank's HP, and just so happens to be able to exceed their max HP. On tanks with higher VIT (Or if your own MND isn't that great), Stoneskin can approach the same MP efficiency as Cure II. Unless that happens, the only time you should really be using Stoneskin is if the target is near max HP and a Cure II would overheal them.

Stoneskin is very useful to help give folks an additional cushion, especially against certain powerful moves. That said, you're probably only going to reliably see it up on the DPS, as tanks lose it in seconds. Theoretically, you COULD put it up on the tank between fights... but do you know any tanks that give you a few seconds before rushing off?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

Theoretically, you COULD put it up on the tank between fights... but do you know any tanks that give you a few seconds before rushing off?

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I tend to throw a Stoneskin on myself immediately after a fight* unless I'm paired with a particularly OCD White Mage. 10% HP is a nice extra buffer to take a group of mob's Alpha Strike with, and it's not like I need the MP for anything else except the occasional "Flash"... :)

* Technically, right BEFORE the end of a fight. Start casting when the foe is on its last sliver of HP so I finish by the time it's dead. Saves those extra "few seconds"! ;)