DevTalk: RPG Design 101- More Level Up Bars And Stuff To Collect to Keep Players Busy

I'm running out of stuff to level up. So are a lot of other people.

Any number of things that a player can "level up" on, no matter how arbitrary it might seem, are still ways to distract a player and keep him occupied, despite a lack of any "real" content.

This Penny-Arcade comic really sums it up best:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2010/3/12/

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Originally Posted by Penny Arcade

I always feel a little guilty when I describe a game with some mathematical equation, of the form "it's this plus this," something I did most recently with the excellent Soulcaster. It's unimaginative, like describing a steak by listing its inherent organic compounds. Blur is a case, though, where it's almost startlingly accurate: if you were to blend Modern Warfare and Mario Kart in equal measure, you'd end up with something very much like what we've been playing. That is to say, immediacy married to progression of a role-playing game.

The reality is that compelling RPG DNA now courses through every genre. We try to make it seem like this is a bad thing in the comic, but the point there is more general. We're being manipulated, certainly, but we like it - or, at the very least, we are rewarded biologically. The JRPG is present in the mind at the moment, but our potent Western blends - addictive hybrids, bred with shooter or adventure game stock - are the inheritors of that lineage. And those are only the most direct descendants.

I've talked to Robert about the dominance of World of Warcraft, and how you could possibly go about defeating such a beast, and the first thing he told me was that you couldn't do it by recreating World of Warcraft. If that seems obvious to you, and it is obvious, wonder then why so many have bet millions of dollars throwing a very similar hat into an almost identical ring.

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Always having stuff to level up, always having a goal to strive for, always having some other statistic be progressable are ways to keep the player coming back for more. Attaching personal character development to any and all content allows you to stretch that content and give it more perceived value than it actually has. It "multiplies", so to speak, the content for minimal additional cost.

As of right now, I have 3 classes to rank 50, another one almost at 50, and other classes at rank 30 and higher.

Crafting is boring, and the only reason I did more of it in the beginning was to be able to repair my own gear, and for the physical EXP. Now that I'm Physl Level 50, crafting is hardly as appealing.

Gathering is not appealing to me at all and needs to have more activities attached to it to make it worthwhile, IMO (gardening and potted plants for BOT, fish breeding in aquariums for FSH, and cock gardening or coblyn-breeding for MIN come to mind)

Aside from that, there is nothing else to progress my character. I could try to craft +3 gear or attain more faction NM gear, but the stats on gear are a joke, stats don't matter very much,

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...nk-vs-Mob-Rank

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...lanced?p=76287

and most faction NM gear is worthless.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...uld-be-redone.

We need more stuff to level up.

We need fame and achievements to level up, and leaderboards to show off to others and compete.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...oming-to-FFXIV

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...ge-Competition

I want to catch wild chocobos and breed them into many different varieties. I want to level up my chocobo breeding skill. I want to level up my chocobo itself. I want to decorate the chocobo in crafted and mob-dropped gear.

I want to collect stuff and have it add to some sort of progression bar.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...through-Eorzea

I want to scan monsters and add them to my bestiary and "catch 'em all" and work to level up my collection.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...nster-Bestiary

I want to play a card game and collect them through a variety of means, and then challenge other players in a form of PVP that doesn't involve combat.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/s...6036#post16036
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/s...6371#post16371
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/s...6695#post16695


I want you to cater to the latent OCD in all of us give us more of the reason we play RPGs to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Rentahamster

Any number of things that a player can "level up" on, no matter how arbitrary it might seem, are still ways to distract a player and keep him occupied, despite a lack of any "real" content.

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I think this describes pretty much the overall feeling in those forums recently: we need more sens of accomplishment. And a diversity of stuff to accomplish.

"cock gardening" ...yes please!

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Originally Posted by Veridian

"cock gardening" ...yes please!

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Three cheers for cock gardening! :cool:

Can't we just play a game and have FUN? I know that might sound like a foreign concept, but unless a levelling process is not tied inextricably to enjoyment, it becomes a tedious grind.

Not everyone has an insatiable perfectionist OCD inner nerd complex.

I'm all for it as long as they seem at least somewhat worthwhile.
Leveling for the sake of it can be stagnating.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...he-Skinner-Box
If you haven't seen it it's worth a look.

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Can't we just play a game and have FUN? I know that might sound like a foreign concept, but unless a levelling process is not tied inextricably to enjoyment, it becomes a tedious grind.

Not everyone has an insatiable perfectionist OCD inner nerd complex.

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This.

The last thing this game needs is more bars and arbitrary limits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Can't we just play a game and have FUN? I know that might sound like a foreign concept, but unless a levelling process is not tied inextricably to enjoyment, it becomes a tedious grind.

Not everyone has an insatiable perfectionist OCD inner nerd complex.

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ya ima also agree with this. There is more to accomplishments then personal gains. Use your high levels to help random people out.

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Originally Posted by Veridian

"cock gardening" ...yes please!

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Oops! Typo. That's supposed to be "rock"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gifthorse

Can't we just play a game and have FUN? I know that might sound like a foreign concept, but unless a levelling process is not tied inextricably to enjoyment, it becomes a tedious grind.

Not everyone has an insatiable perfectionist OCD inner nerd complex.

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Of course it would be tied into fun. They are both intimately connected. Having goals to strive for is something to look forward to, and the patch to achieving those goals should be fun.

Right now, the base level of "fun" I could have from this game by doing all the things that I could possibly do is restrained somewhat by the lack of purpose and progression.

"Filling up bars" is basically at the heart of every single RPG in existence, so it's imperative that we make the goals desirable and the process of "bar filling" fun at the same time.

These concepts are not mutually exclusive. They work to enhance each other.

I'd like to see something among the lines of Gear Collecting, like one of the trophies from FFXIII was to have all of the items.

Of course, the bar won't fill all the way up, but it would be cool to see how far you can get it before more armor is released in patch updates ^^

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gramul

I'm all for it as long as they seem at least somewhat worthwhile.
Leveling for the sake of it can be stagnating.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vide...he-Skinner-Box
If you haven't seen it it's worth a look.

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Great link Gramul! I finally got around to watching that video and it makes some really good points. I think in part it kind of goes back to what I was saying about fun being intimately intertwined with the reward mechanics (leveling up). If the journey is fun and engaging, the rewards will help to multiply the entertainment value.

A good point that the video makes is that Operant Conditioning is pretty commonplace in RPGs, but honestly, that's what has been one of the main draws of Final Fantasy since the first one on the NES.

What I want to emphasize, is that the only really, truly "required" element of the RPG operant conditioning would be the ranking up and leveling up of one's classes. That is the main form of progression and should be the focus. Of course, the if the battle grind gets boring that is a flaw with the entertainment value of the battle itself and not necessarily the aspect of Operant Conditioning. To give an example, Diablo II's grind was usually entertaining, and it took a lot of time before most players got sick of it.

Ideally, with the new battle system being unveiled, the actual participation in battle and subsequent cooperation and strategies that are involved will be engaging enough and entertaining enough to make it all worthwhile.

I sure hope that is the case.

Additionally, what I also want to emphasize, is that the other activities I mentioned - those secondary activities, are not strictly required. They are optional. A player can do as much, or as little, as he or she wants to without it being a huge benefit or detriment to his or her overall battle effectiveness.

It is for entertainment purposes only, and let's face it - most people who play RPGs do have that collector's mania in them to at least some extent.

Leveling up one's fame, leveling up one's chocobo, completing a monster bestiary, collecting cards to use to challenge other players - all these things are elements that can help to multiply the entertainment value of all the other elements in the game that they influence.

They can be designed to be great fun. But again, if you don't want to do it, you don't have to.