I'm curious as to what separates the actions of poachers from a presumably law-abiding adventurer.
"Poaching" can mean any activity related to hunting game that is against the law. In game, especially in the Archer storyline, you fight gangs of poachers (and not feel too bad about it because they're obviously willing to try and kill you to protect their activities). But what's the difference between a Couerlclaw poacher taking furs and an adventurer like me who needs a lot of beast siniew for leatherworking and either personally or through friends kills many Antelope Stags for it?
I'm curious what other people think (and would especially interested if a dev chimed in). I'll add my own observations in a reply post.
Gridania Law: Poaching
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10-04-2013, 04:36 AMLahdi_OolongGridania Law: Poaching
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10-04-2013, 04:37 AMLahdi_Oolong
My observations:
- Gridanians practice forest management very much like modern human organizations do
- Invasive species and those that are a threat to life and welfare are fair game, as is killing for population control (Lv 1 Conjurer and Archer quests and many others).
- The Leatherworker's Guild can reliably supply itself and do so legally; they express a desire to respect the forest and make the best use of the hunted animals that the can. (Leatherworker's Guild intro quests)
- Certain traps and probably other inhumane ways of killing are frowned on. (Lv 20 Archer quest)
- Some species are given special protection; the Admantortise is apparently one of those as their nesting area near Camp Tranquil has a special guard of Wood Wailers. (Lv 30 main story quest)
- Taking eggs, especially of protected species, is illegal; it's probably safe to presume based on RL laws that this applies to young animals and their mothers as well. (Lv 30 main story quest) -
10-04-2013, 08:11 AMCatapult
You understand the lore mechanics of story-telling. Next up are practical mechanics of game development.
Eorzea exists in a sort of time bubble, only progressing when the story demands it. This is why your character can be in a hurry to be somewhere, but the player can take as much time as they like.
Those antelopes you killed? They only died once, when the game asked you to legally cull them. But because the game needs to facilitate MMO functions, the time bubble resets itself and they consequently respawn. Likewise those Redbelly poachers you wiped out come back to life. And so do you in the event you die.
Titan would have had it easy were it not for the time bubble. -
10-04-2013, 09:16 AMLahdi_Oolong
I know well enough about gameplay and story segregation. Likewise, I was not the only person to defeat Ifrit, or be the envoy of Gridania, and that spending several hours fishing will not put Limsa at risk from the upcomming Titan fight. :P
I'm intrigued by this particular issue anyway. While I can accept fudging story to make gameplay work, I like it better when it doesn't. -
10-04-2013, 09:52 AMfaris
In 1.0, it was stated that the Leatherworker's guild hunted animals with the express permission of the Elementals, the Botanist's guild harvested with the express permission of the Elementals, and no-one touched anything more than what they needed / had permission for. Communion with the Elementals was possible through Hearers and the Seedseers, most importantly E-Sumi-Yan, the first Padjal to live in Gridania.
Furthermore, in 1.0, you see what exactly happens when people take from the forest without permission in the Lancer storyline. You're supposed to escort an Ul'dahn NPC through the Twelveswood, but... things happen. Lots of bad things. Logs falling and blocking the road, a herd of stampeding antelope, and finally a furious elemental. You discover that the Ul'dahn merchant kidnapped a moogle.
I imagine the Keepers don't adhere to guidance from the Conjurer's guild regarding Greenwrath / Woodsin. In 1.0, it was stated that someone which disobeyed the Elemental's will were lost in the forest forever (I've forgotten the term for them, unfortunately!) and disallowed to return to Gridania - at the mercy of the forest, and the Elementals. ... Or lack of it. Usually, they'd just end up as fertilizer when the elementals are done with them.
I imagine the Keeper of the Moons proficiency at hunting, and formation of groups such as the Couerlclaws allow them to stay alive. (when they're solitary creatures, usually. Forming such groups is uncharacteristic, but not so when the entire forest is out to get you.) -
10-04-2013, 03:37 PMBufkus
I personally have no problems with the poachers and I think the gridanians are just being oppressive towards them. I would join them if I could (the poachers that is).
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10-05-2013, 07:31 AMEnkidoh
Faris basically got it right as to why Gridania is like it is towards poachers - the Black Shroud is a living entity, and was the domain of the elementals long before any of the five races even set foot in Eorzea.
Everything Gridania does has to have permission from the elementals first, from hunting wildlife (and often the Shroud dictates that certain animals actually have to be hunted, to keep a balance in the ecosystem), to growing crops, tree cutting and building construction. Everything has to be run past the elementals first. Hence the Wood Wailers and the God's Quiver take violations of this very serious, as it has serious implications for Gridania itself.
Not to mention, as Faris already stated, those who violate the will of the forest also risk the wrath of the elementals, a negative karma referred to in 1.0 as 'woodsin' or 'greenwrath', which is essentially a ever increasing curse, requiring a form of exorcism through ritual dance.
If this is not done, the taint on a person supposedly leads them to being 'claimed' by the forest as a 'wildling', a doomed soul forced to wander the forest. Although it should also be said that this idea is somewhat exaggerated, as it was revealed in 1.0 a large number of people that were supposedly wildlings were soon shown to be otherwise normal in every way and were just hiding away from Gridania, because to be called a wildling effectively makes a person a social pariah and shunned by the rest of society.
This is also the reason for the 'Hedgetrees' found in various places in the Black Shroud - they form a kind of magical barrier known as the 'Hedge', which is supposed to protect Gridania from excessive greenwrath (hence their protection is vital, as it should be pretty obvious what would happen if a Hedgetree was destroyed or otherwise harmed).
No doubt by the time of ARR, the damage on the Black Shroud caused by the Calamity has probably greatly reduced the potency of the forest's power, making the Hedge more ineffective, and leading to all manner of incursions which would have at one time not been tolerated (in fact, numerous npcs actually mention this - that the power of the elementals appears to be on the wane, due to the amount of monsters found in the forest and the constant raids by the Ixal, which has serious implications for Gridania).
In any event, with the forest greatly weakened it's not surprising that illegal hunting in the Shroud has increased, as the elementals power is waning and the Wood Wailers and God's Quiver are hard pressed enough as it is maintaining internal security against the Ixal, and hardly have the time to chase down poachers (hence the FATEs and quests where adventurers are recruited for this). -
10-08-2013, 07:19 AMUrthdigger
The way I see it, the animals that appear in-game? Those are the ones you're legally permitted to hunt. The black shroud is actually a LOT livelier than it appears.
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10-09-2013, 12:23 AMSylentmana
I remember a quest where I was tasked with finding a Miqo'te poacher. When I found her she said she only killed a few animals to help feed her ailing family and begs me to let her go. The game didn't give me a choice in the matter, but I would have let her go anyway.
It made me wonder how, if her story was true, could the elementals put the lives of some dumb animals above the lives of intelligent beings. My conclusion is the elementals are jerks. -
10-09-2013, 12:53 AMFelis
This happen when the elementals get angry: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReHvAZKYIp0
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10-09-2013, 05:52 AMVeloxWell, to add some real life logic to this, yes they could. Humans tend to forget (or simply don't realize) they we are indeed animals. Anything part of the kingdom Animalia is technically an animal. Level of intelligence varies from species to species, but they are all still animals. Game logic would be the same assuming similar circumstances. The elementals aren't really jerks, they are simply unbiased. Everything should be treated with equal respect in their eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylentmana
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10-10-2013, 09:46 PMLecanTo further extend this, we only prize intelligence because it's our evolutionary advantage. Other species give privilege (rank, best mates, etc) to the strongest or the best fighters. If, say, coeurls were the dominant species, they might wonder why the elementals place value on our lives: "why would the elementals put the lives of some weak animals above the lives of strong and agile beings? My conclusion is the elementals are jerks."Quote:
Originally Posted by Velox
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10-11-2013, 07:44 AMTheodric...animals are very intelligent. Arguably more so than humans in some cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylentmana
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10-13-2013, 07:40 PMjomoruIts no different than putting money above whether someone should eat or not. This is the unfortunate truth of scarcity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sylentmana