MVP and Vote Kick.. Try to break it!

So with those 2 systems coming, maybe we can get an idea of how many broken stuff we can do and how SE can fix those issues. We should probably conjure up a list which consists of everything that's abusable with these 2 systems, and with the solutions! For all it's worth, it might give SE ideas..

Vote Kick:

• Kick one-two random DFer when running with FC/premade(Solution: ???)
• Kick someone near the end (Solution: Prevent kicks during/after final boss fight?)
• Kick someone watching cutscenes (Solution: ???)
• Kick someone before chests (Solution: ???)

MVP:

• Threaten to do nothing if not voted MVP(granted, you can lie..but i think this behavior itself if arise is very inappropriate)
• Promise to vote one another, and someone lie
• Not really how to break it, but might discourage FC/Premade groupings

Thoughts anyone?

Thanks for the suggestions guys! I'll put up a list here for what people have said.

Suggestions people made:
Vote Kick:
- Have cooldowns for kick. Would be a good idea, but still abusable cause well, some people are that special.
- Have kick limits daily. Again, it's not impossible but I think the chance of getting 3-4 "bad' groups in a row is not impossible.
- Vote to skip cutscenes - Sounds like a fair idea except that it really makes a player that likes to watch cutscenes sad.. There's a very high chance someone went with a premade 6-7 group and missing one person. I'm torn on this, because it can be argued that if one person wants to watch CS while the other 7 doesn't it might be considered selfish. I am however on the opinion that cutscenes may be watched when it's on the instance, because immersion etc.
- First-timers to any dungeon (players who have not completed it yet) cannot be kicked unless they are AFK/disconnected. This is good! Although the "very" bad apples whose life exists to make others harder (for example, doing barely enough not to be seen as AFK, taking super slow time during cutscenes e.g. 15 minutes for one scene) I think most people will want their first run to be smooth.
- No kicks during combat, no kicks directly after a boss is downed & loot is being rolled on, and no kicks after final boss has been defeated. Hmm, what about let's say kicks before the tonberry king? I agree this is a good idea, but still mildly abuseable.
- A dungeon party has a cooldown on successive kicks. Seems like a good idea. No daily limits, but timer restriction for successive kicks.
- Replacements for kicked players must be drawn from the random Duty Finder pool. Manual invites to specific characters are only possible if someone leaves voluntarily, or was AFK/disconnected. Really good idea! I think this will prevent players that on purpose wants to kick someone near the end to help their friend pass something.
- The penalty for abandoning a DF group increases with each group you abandon per day. Penalty for leaving a group that includes a first-timer is also increased. I think this one is a bit harsh as it is. It would probably encourage people to start witch hunting someone who contributed the least or made the most mistakes and pressure him/her to leave first or just vote kick him/her.
- Someone told me that in WoW, they implemented a system where players who were manually grouped together before entering DF were collectively counted as one "vote." This would be good if there's many people and groups come as chunks of people instead of like 4-2-2, but let's say you went as an honest group of 3 and you meet "That guy" which automatically gets impossible to votekick because you only have one vote?


MVP:
- Restrict amount of maximum MVP votes you can get in a day(what would happen if person is capped? prompt to vote another player?)
- The biggest flaw i can see with the MVP system is that certain roles will just get ignored. I suspect that Tanks will receive a high percentage of the MVPs for doing simple things like marking mobs. What can someone in a DPS role offer to set them apart from the other DPS in the party? This is one concern as well, but I guess tanks would deserve it because they are a class that is low in amount? But I can see other things stemming from this such as favouring a healer, or an amazingly geared DPS regardless of how they play.
- Only thing I dont like about vote-kick is when there is a majority of same-guild "voters" taking the advantage and being an ass to anyone that joins. Don't worry, if you go premade there's no MVP! I think this is to encourage the use of DF.


Let me know if there's anything I miss! Surprisingly, there's very few concerns about the MVP system, although the concerns we have now are actually quite valid (some classes being more noteworthy than others, although everyone has its own role)

Do wanna get suspended? This isn't beta...

If MVP rate-up notification doesn't show up until you exit dungeon (and that's how it should operate) it'll be hard to abuse. After all, you'll never know until it's too late.

Also, MVP has been confirmed to only work on cross-server ppl.


Kick should have cooldown (kicked player gets a 60sec countdown -- or they can leave immediately), it should be unavailable once final boss chamber is entered, and all loot items should be auto-distributed when a kick happens.

With these steps, abuse should be greatly reduced.

also if you run with 2 friends you cannot kick the DF random you get.

Easiest way to prevent cutscene drama is to do it like GW1. Everyone in the party needs to vote to skip, and votes are anonymous. Either that, or a "Story Mode" checkbox in DF.

I think the timer on a second vote kick should be lengthy, like 10+ minutes. There shouldn't be a reason to be vote kicking several people more often than that. If you have multiple people in your group that are a problem to warrant multiple kicks, you should probably leave the group entirely.

The vote "during/after boss fight" could be fixed by not allowing votes during combat, and adding a cooldown to the vote kick after you exit combat. The cooldown for this would need to be longer than the time out for loot distribution.

In regards to discouraging FC grouping, they could put a "cap" on how many MVP points you can acquire in one day, similar to tomes.

These are just some ideas off the top of my head.

edit: I understand that some of these things add tedium (wait times), but what would a FF MMO be without tedium? :D

Also, why am I in my THM fate gear? :(

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Originally Posted by coffeepotz

Do wanna get suspended? This isn't beta...

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What?

It's just a discussion related to potential shortcomings of the features mentioned.

This is what I think should be the rules and will be "solutions" for your cons for the kick function.

1) You have to have 75% of the votes. If its a four man dungeon it has to be unanimous; in an eight man, 6 out of the 8 are required.
2) New players cannot be kicked no matter what. Their name doesn't appear in the kick list.
3) You only get 3 kicks a day. That way it limits what the elitist will vote for.
4) If you get kicked you are warned. Twice in a day you are locked for 15 minutes. Three times an hour. On the fourth time you are locked out until a set time per region. (EX: 8:00 am PST)
5) If you kick someone you have the option to leave a highly censored message 25 characters or less that are visible on the Duty Finder screen of the kicked player until a check box is marked. Any locked out time (see above) doesn't start until this check box is checked.

EDIT:

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Originally Posted by silentwindfr

@OrganizationXIll: another time a first timer fall with a group of elitist jerk that kick him out of the dungeon because he want to see him CS, with no luck him second group is the same, with no luck the poor soul fall again with a group like this for the third and fourth time... he get lock simply for trying to enjoy the game.

i think the concern they have are about this. the tool in itself is not bad, but how the people will use it can lead to some huge trouble.

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How many times do you really think they will have 6 or more when they don't have 8? Probably a quarter of the time if that. The fact is if they are elitist enough to have 6 they will probably have 2 more friends. If not then they probably wont have the 75% they need. Also, all the while this guy you are referring to would be the worlds most unlucky guy to get in those groups twice let alone 4 times. It will happen twice in a row very rarely, but beyond that? If they aren't doing anything wrong then the majority of the community will just leave them be since they plan on running the dungeon another 10ish times more to get the cap of 300. They wont want to waste one of their 3 votes on a guy that is legitimately trying to do the dungeon and is just bad. They will want to save them for trolls.

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Originally Posted by Menubrea

What?

It's just a discussion related to potential shortcomings of the features mentioned.

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Originally Posted by Richiealvian

So with those 2 systems coming, maybe we can get an idea of how many broken stuff we can do...

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I was reading it as "Lets make a list of how to abuse the system." After reading how some people were VERY against vote kick, I was thinking OP was planning on actually trying all these things in game.

@seraphi: about the cut scene, imagine a first timer get into Castrum with a full group of Speedrunner... he will be forced to to skip the cutscene since he will be alone at say no.

the only solution against the drame over the cutscene is to make a option for first timer/speedrunner. but it will lead to the fact that first timer will be left out. i still think that doing Speedrun with DF must be considered as griefing. with the 2.1 with the new message board for make a group inside your own server, they have no reason to use the DF for do the speedrun.

@OrganizationXIll: another time a first timer fall with a group of elitist jerk that kick him out of the dungeon because he want to see him CS, with no luck him second group is the same, with no luck the poor soul fall again with a group like this for the third and fourth time... he get lock simply for trying to enjoy the game.

i think the concern they have are about this. the tool in itself is not bad, but how the people will use it can lead to some huge trouble.

The biggest flaw i can see with the MVP system is that certain roles will just get ignored. I suspect that Tanks will receive a high percentage of the MVPs for doing simple things like marking mobs. What can someone in a DPS role offer to set them apart from the other DPS in the party? What about players that perform their jobs perfectly but don't say a word while running the dungeon? I think the intent of the feature is admirable but it will be nearly impossible to implement in a way that is fair to everyone in the group.

This wouldn't be a huge issue if the reward was just bonus gil or tokens, but it has been stated that these will be unique rewards that are only available via this system.

@Oda: i admit you point something that need to be worked on it. as a tank, if a dps do him jobs like focus my target, don't break the sleep, controle him hate. even if he don't talk, i will often give him my vote.
with the DF i have often play with Japanese that don't talk english, believe me even if they don't talk good player that are patient and nice you will notice them dps or not.

For Vote Kick, I would suggest these rules:

1) First-timers to any dungeon (players who have not completed it yet) cannot be kicked unless they are AFK/disconnected.

2) No kicks during combat, no kicks directly after a boss is downed & loot is being rolled on, and no kicks after final boss has been defeated. Each player can vote toward limited kicks per day, and a dungeon party has a cooldown on successive kicks.

3) No kicking a player in the first few minutes of them entering a dungeon, for any reason. I'm tempted to include something about kicking just before the final boss, though I'm not sure about the particulars.

4) In a Light Party, you need 3 out of 4 players to pass a vote to Kick. In a Full Party, you need either 6 or 7 out of 8 (I'm not sure of exact number in this case, perhaps the requirement could fluctuate based on circumstances).

5) There should probably be limits on the amount of kicks a player can vote in per day, or perhaps a cooldown on kicking for any particular group. This inhibits repeated kicks, and kicks for petty/minor reasons.

6) Replacements for kicked players must be drawn from the random Duty Finder pool. Manual invites to specific characters are only possible if someone leaves voluntarily, or was AFK/disconnected.

7) A player who is kicked while AFK or disconnected will count as having abandoned the group, and will suffer the penalty for leaving. Apologies to those of us who get legitimately disconnected against their will, but this is necessary to deter the players who intentionally "disconnect" rather than leave. AFK or disconnected characters will automatically be removed from the party after a given time, if not kicked.

8) The penalty for abandoning a DF group increases with each group you abandon per day. Penalty for leaving a group that includes a first-timer is also increased.

9) Someone told me that in WoW, they implemented a system where players who were manually grouped together before entering DF were collectively counted as one "vote." Sounds good to me, though I haven't fully thought through possible downfalls.

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Originally Posted by Seraphi

Easiest way to prevent cutscene drama is to do it like GW1. Everyone in the party needs to vote to skip, and votes are anonymous. Either that, or a "Story Mode" checkbox in DF.

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I really like this, though I'm not sure how effective it would be with cutscenes that are advanced via text boxes, at least as far as it being "anonymous." The player who is still reading is obviously the one who didn't skip. :-P
Maybe the text doesn't advance until all players approve?

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Originally Posted by VitoScaletta

I already heard my FC talking about kicking people in DF until they find someone worthwhile. Great job, fix one way to grief and create an entirely new more effective way.

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Oh, please. As it is, a single player can decide to ruin an entire run for a party of 4 or 8, and completely waste their time, all while taunting them and daring them to take the penalty for leaving. I'd say that a far more effective way to grief than 3/4 or 7/8 players coming to a consensus to remove 1 player for being a problem. As I and other people have pointed out, there are myriad ways to build in safeguards that minimize abuse and put a muzzle on FCs like yours.



As far as the MVP points system, I'm not aware of any way to abuse it yet. Most criticisms I've heard of it are from people who haven't read up on it, and refer to flaws that don't exist. There are no "down votes." You can't award MVP points to anyone you manually grouped with before queuing -- it's only for randoms. Points are awarded anonymously, after the dungeon is completed. There is no way to make any sort of deals/threats with regards to how points are allocated. You can't "sell" a run for MVP points, or try to coerce anyone into awarding points one way or the other. You literally get them for being a good team player in Duty Finder.

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Originally Posted by oda

The biggest flaw i can see with the MVP system is that certain roles will just get ignored. I suspect that Tanks will receive a high percentage of the MVPs for doing simple things like marking mobs. What can someone in a DPS role offer to set them apart from the other DPS in the party?

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Derp. Okay, so that's one potential shortcoming, even if it isn't really an "abuse". As a DPS, I have also thought about this, but it seems I forgot. Hard to say, we could still end up getting points for having a good attitude, playing well if others aren't, providing advice/strats on bosses, etc. Or maybe this is an incentive to try tanking/healing for a while? Whatever the case, I'd still rather this feature be in the game than not.

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Originally Posted by Fyrebrand

As far as the MVP points system, I'm not aware of any way to abuse it yet. Most criticisms I've heard of it are from people who haven't read up on it, and refer to flaws that don't exist.

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Curious to what you think about the question I raised above regarding what group roles will most likely receive MVP points.

Really, SE, votekick? I already heard my FC talking about kicking people in DF until they find someone worthwhile. Great job, fix one way to grief and create an entirely new more effective way.

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Originally Posted by oda

The biggest flaw i can see with the MVP system is that certain roles will just get ignored. I suspect that Tanks will receive a high percentage of the MVPs for doing simple things like marking mobs. What can someone in a DPS role offer to set them apart from the other DPS in the party? What about players that perform their jobs perfectly but don't say a word while running the dungeon? I think the intent of the feature is admirable but it will be nearly impossible to implement in a way that is fair to everyone in the group.

This wouldn't be a huge issue if the reward was just bonus gil or tokens, but it has been stated that these will be unique rewards that are only available via this system.

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This might encourage DPS roles to not be such mindless drones then. It's true, most DPS just point and attack, but anyone who has been in a group with me will know that I give help whenever it is asked for any role. I pay attention to what everyone's job is during any dungeon, so I can easily give information to a first-time or someone who isn't quite clear about what to do. Also, (as nicely as possible!!!) if we wipe a few times on a certain boss I will offer tips to help whatever the problem may be, and will willingly ask if I'm the reason it's happening.

Also, I doubt it will be mandatory to vote for someone. I think you are overestimating the generosity of the general public. If a tank is just doing his job (marking targets, not attacking slept, etc.) they won't get an MVP vote from me for that. That's kind of what he/she is supposed to be doing anyway. Now, a tank that is getting blindsided by other idiot DPS and chasing hate down all while preventing deaths in a dungeon would certainly be worthy of my vote.

I think, if anything it might be too tough to get an MVP at all, versus votes being given out to a single role with no distribution. I like the system, though. It will make more people strive to be better players than it will discourage them.

Vote-Kick:

A dps queues into a four man dungeon run. The three other members are three friends who queued in together and stipulates that the random cannot lot on any loot or they can "go back to enjoying the wait".

MVP system:

This is... I don't know... I'm not sure how the exact system works but in my opinion the concept of acknowledging one member of a party as superior seems to fly in the face of encouraging teamwork. Will we begin to see people one-upping each other such as people pointing out EVERY single flaw in the party along the way to the final boss? I hope I'm just paranoid.

Only thing I dont like about vote-kick is when there is a majority of same-guild "voters" taking the advantage and being an ass to anyone that joins.

No real solution to it IMO, except maybe to make it so if you get vote kicked you get put to the top of the queue. Only a few times though ... there are those who actually deserve to get kicked. Maybe if it only moves the kicked player to the top of the queue if the majority voters dont come from the same server? That sounds like it may work actually....

Dont really see aything particularly wrong with MVP since there is no down vote, and no voting for friends. Not that I believe itll really do much to get rid of the jerks but its not necessarily a bad thing either.

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Originally Posted by Artamie

Will we begin to see people one-upping each other such as people pointing out EVERY single flaw in the party along the way to the final boss? I hope I'm just paranoid.

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I don't think leadership and teamwork is about pointing out flaws at all. It's about genuinely helping the team, explaining fights to those who need it, and not getting needlessly mad over silly shit. Encouraging the team to succeed.

That's the sort of person I would vote MVP for.

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Originally Posted by Artamie

Will we begin to see people one-upping each other such as people pointing out EVERY single flaw in the party along the way to the final boss? I hope I'm just paranoid.

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Heh, they can try, but if they think that will win them votes they have another thing coming. I might even give the person they're complaining about a vote, just because.

look how the rating system in demons souls was abused.

If the MVP system is going to be similar in actual use by players to the one used in SWTOR PvP, as I'm fairly certain it will be, I don't think anyone is going to care after the first week or so. Most of us would only occasionally pick someone with the intent of giving them a MVP medal. The rest of the time, people would either just leave without voting (thus meaning they couldn't be voted for as well) or randomly choose someone to throw a medal at. Every medal you got added a bonus to your reward, so even if just 1 person chose you for MVP, you'd walk out with a small extra something. It was harmless and just gave people an opportunity to be charitable without spending more than a couple seconds.

In other words, the MVP system will do nothing but potentially give you a bonus. It will not hurt you in any way.

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Originally Posted by Welsper59

If the MVP system is going to be similar in actual use by players to the one used in SWTOR PvP, as I'm fairly certain it will be, I don't think anyone is going to care after the first week or so.

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In other words, the MVP system will do nothing but potentially give you a bonus. It will not hurt you in any way.

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This may be true and if there weren't exclusive rewards I don't think anyone would care. But if there are exclusive rewards like mounts, pets, etc. it will still be problematic.

Vote Kick could be.... pretty horrible :l No doubt it will be good for getting rid of straight up antisocials and trolls, but abuse could be a big factor.

Getting voted out because you don't meet some arbitary standard others in the party have, making one silly mistake and suffering the rage of some insane perfectionists, getting kicked for watching cutscenes, making it close to the end and get troll kicked by the rest of the party..... all of this is undoubtedly going to happen. Excuse me while I go cry in the corner.

One of the best ways to prevent abuse of a vote kicking feature is to add a "kick" memory to each player. If someone uses the kick too frequently, then they incur an increasingly lengthy IRL timer until the next time they can kick. It's not fool proof, but it makes people try to save kicks for when they get someone who is actually really bad/goofing off instead of just kicking someone because their gear is slightly sub par.

dc about abuse, it will be better than the way it is now.

Keep it coming guys! The ideas are really cool!