Using Provoke to Pull in AK

I have been using provoke to pull the Succubi and the Dallahan (sp?) in AK. Has anyone else been doing this?

I was doing an AK run last night where we had two dragoons. When we got to the first Succubus, the healer pulled it, but he messed up somehow and pulled the two Soul Collector guys as well. After I got them all off him and we killed them, he said "Sorry, I usually can pull without getting all of them." I said, "NP, but I can pull the Succubi with provoke. It makes things a bit easier." He didn't respond because I do not think he knew what I meant at first. When we got to the next pack of mobs with a Succubus, I provoked her and as she was coming towards us I used shield lob and tanked her. Then, the healer said, "Ohhhh, I am going to have to tell John he is retarded." Presumably John is a friend of the healer's that plays a tank.

Now, it usually isn't that hard to pull the mob away from a Bard or something that pulls her, but I figure the tank might as well pull the Succubi so you don't have to deal with pulling her off someone else at all. What do you guys think?

yes
/10char

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Originally Posted by Tronic

yes
/10char

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Cool. I guess I am asking because it seems like many DPS think they need to do it. Or they know they don't have to and just like to.

Not all Wars have provoke :) (as a GLA 22 skill)

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Originally Posted by Wolfoot

Not all Wars have provoke :) (as a GLA 22 skill)

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They really should have it as an option, even if they don't equip it for everything.

On the topic, yes, I pull with Provoke there.

John...that SOB....

We should have a little "chat" with this John fellow...

Yep, 'voke is great for that. Imo its better for the tank to pull in case of a mess up, (pretty much just on the last pull) you won't get ganked instantly by the group like a bard or mage would.

Yes I use provoke to pull the giants and the sucubuses. However I have a macro for when we get to the area telling the healer to wait to regen me till after I get a shield lob off(capt America shield throw) I get A lot of healers who just love putting regen on me before the pack gets to me >.<

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Originally Posted by James1213

Yes I use provoke to pull the giants and the sucubuses. However I have a macro for when we get to the area telling the healer to wait to regen me till after I get a shield lob off(capt America shield throw) I get A lot of healers who just love putting regen on me before the pack gets to me >.<

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Or Black Mages blasting it before it gets to you...

A 'good' WAR should be going out of their way to get Provoke.

As a DD, I can't say that I *hate* having the tanks provoke-pull, buuut. . .I'd rather do it. It's not about wanting to be the guy pulling, either. I just figure if you're going to be using Provoke anyway, you might as well get the 200-300 enmity I just produced, rather than the 1 you would produce.

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Originally Posted by Raze_Krauser

A 'good' WAR should be going out of their way to get Provoke.

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Absolutely. Awareness and mantra I would currently say pass on, but holy crap provoke is the most important tool you have as a tank - you can take massive amounts of enmity away from other characters and instantly put yourself at the top of the hate table.

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

As a DD, I can't say that I *hate* having the tanks provoke-pull, buuut. . .I'd rather do it. It's not about wanting to be the guy pulling, either. I just figure if you're going to be using Provoke anyway, you might as well get the 200-300 enmity I just produced, rather than the 1 you would produce.

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Perfectly valid reasoning. I however prefer to do Provoke > Shield Lob myself because of.. trust issues. Seen many people facepulling so now I just do it myself so I'm the only one to blame if I mess up :)

I think there's a lot of negativity towards Provoke pulls because it's often seen as something newer/unsure players do when they don't understand mechanics, and don't realise that it only generates 1 enmity on a single target. They see it as "high threat ranged attack" and pull everything with it regardless of range.

I admit I was almost one of the naysayers until I realised just HOW much longer range Provoke has than Shield Lob/Tomahawk. You can do some very very fancy pulls with it, and the pre-Anantaboga trash pulls in AK are probably the best example.

Normally in my runs even before the mobs are done some range is pulling her for me so I never have to use provoke like that. Most cases when someone pulls them all its just because they moved up too close. The real problem is when pulling the one across the way range love to whack it as it comes and then they get to tank.. mostly dead by then anyway.

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Originally Posted by Lhun

Absolutely. Awareness and mantra I would currently say pass on, but holy crap provoke is the most important tool you have as a tank - you can take massive amounts of enmity away from other characters and instantly put yourself at the top of the hate table.

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As long as you're doing your job properly you absolutely don't need 'voke for that. While it's nice to help you pull (but you can definitely do w/o it) and required for tank swaping, 'voke is far far far from being the "most important tool"
I never slotted it for random dungeon and I can only think of 1 time it would've helped me, but even then it was initially because a DPS derped.

Provoke pulling is one of those things where you tell new players to NEVER EVER do when what you really mean is never do it unless you understand the ramifications of what you're doing.

Using it to pull a patrol out of a pack of mobs that you can't get close enough to shield lob is a perfectly valid use for it.

This is the case for a lot of blanket advice, it's a generalization because in 95% of the cases it's good advice. Once you understand the advice well enough that you can recognize the exceptions, then you really know your character well enough to not need to rationalize to other folks what you're doing.

1. New player provoke pulls, doesn't realize it's an error.
2. Intermediate player doesn't provoke pull, realizes it would be an error.
3. Seasoned player provoke pulls when it isn't an error. Recognizes the difference.

When a new player face pulls a pat and 2 groups of mobs, it's an error.
When an experienced player face pulls a pat and 2 groups of mobs, it's because they know their group can handle it and the AE makes the run a bit faster (or they just face pulled a pat and 2 groups of mobs =p).

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Originally Posted by Viridiana

As a DD, I can't say that I *hate* having the tanks provoke-pull, buuut. . .I'd rather do it. It's not about wanting to be the guy pulling, either. I just figure if you're going to be using Provoke anyway, you might as well get the 200-300 enmity I just produced, rather than the 1 you would produce.

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This is a good point, but you also have to realize that even though I get that 200-300 enmity, I am still only ONE higher than you after using provoke. So, it may put me far above the other two people in the group, but the person pulling still needs to back off. Too often I use provoke and they immediately hit it again, which instantly puts them over me again. Also, when I pull I don't just use provoke, but shield lob as soon as it gets close enough as well. So I have more than 1 by the time it gets to me (just like a normal pull when I use shield lob to pull). And in that instance I am more than 1 over everyone in the group, whereas if the ranged pulled I have to do an enmity race with them. This is taking into account people that don't stop attacking, mind you. Good dps that pull will hopefully back off a couple of seconds to ensure I got him. Unfortunately, I can't always trust that DF dps will do that.

I also agree with the above post. I would never use provoke for normal pulls, obviously shield lob is better. Separating mobs from packs in AK is the only time I can recall pulling with it.

Thanks for the pulling tip with provoke in AK... As a PLD I have always had more then enough defense just to run in and beat them all down as a group. Pulling with provoke will definitely pay out in coil though.

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Originally Posted by Kaalan

As long as you're doing your job properly you absolutely don't need 'voke for that. While it's nice to help you pull (but you can definitely do w/o it) and required for tank swaping, 'voke is far far far from being the "most important tool"
I never slotted it for random dungeon and I can only think of 1 time it would've helped me, but even then it was initially because a DPS derped.

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I respectfully disagree.

It's absolutely the most important enmity tool in the game. It doesn't matter if "medica II". Voke. Top of table, remove your regen personally, BB combo - you get to keep hate. (most of the time). Otherwise, you are WAY behind.
You die and get battle raised? Voke. Instant "A", tanking again.
You cat stands on your keyboard, splilling your coffee and causing you to stop doing combos for 5-10 seconds? 'Voke. Fixed.

#1 reason:

Co-Tanking and other tank just took a beating? 'Voke. Instant hate, you are on top. It allows you to INSTANTLY be the enemy target, it allows you you INSTANTLY swap hate without having to wonder if you kept up, it's absolutely the MOST IMPORTANT SKILL for a tank at endgame in 8 man raids. A tank of ANY kind without provoke isn't a tank. You need to ABSOLUTELY ALWAYS be able to regain hate in many situations. Your job is to protect EVERYONE ELSE in your group. If you can't ABSOLUTELY guarantee that you can do that in a sticky situation, you are not a tank.

Also, a very useful thing is to be able to "steal" the enmity from another dd to put you way ahead of the other players. Lifesurge back attack from drg, Voke, drg backs off a bit... you're WAY up there now, and the healer can breathe easier.