Addressing the problems of unbalanced parties ( Both skilled and unskilled players)

Taken from the inverview with Yoshida on Gamasutra:

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The one thing that I learned from the battle systems of other games is that when you create parties, you have people of different skill levels, and some people will be really good at games, and some people might not be. So, you have the different skill levels in one party, but each person has their role, and their role is clearly defined, and that's really important.

To have the rules of a battle that are simple enough to understand, but challenging enough to get players to use their mind. You have to think and strategize -- have something that's going to challenge them in that way, but not something that's going to be complex to the point where people won't be able to do anything.

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I think Yoshida understands very well the problems facing many groups of players. While I consider myself a very good player, I have had alot of friends along the way in my MMO experiences, and many of them were good players and many were bad players. But the important thing was, I loved playing with all of them because they were my friends, yet there was always a sort of uneasiness for some who didn't always do the best.

I don't believe there can be one solution to this problem, as I don't believe its possible to "solve" it; however, I would just like to share my thoughts and provide a place for others to consider it as well.

I think it's important to first identify where the problem lies. When you have an unbalanced group of players, with both good and bad players, and engaging in battles of varying difficulty, it is inevitable that a few situations will arise.

1. In content that is not very difficult, it is possible for all players to enjoy it, and there are very few problems that will cause friction between the players. Eventually, however, if this content is the only type available, the more skilled players will begin becoming bored, as they naturally will be seeking a challenge.

2. In content that is moderately difficult, it is still possible for players to enjoy the game. While the players who are better may end up 'carrying' the others to a degree, the others can still be seen as contributing to the victory and there is still little friction between the two groups. There is a slight degree of satisfaction for the better players who are now being challenged more, but the players who are struggling may become frustrated.

3. Now, I believe this is where this issue becomes a problem. As the same unbalanced group of players moves from content that is moderately difficult, where they are able to reliably complete each challenge, into content that is more difficult, the two distinct types of players will begin to build a certain friction between them. The more skilled players will stop seeing a challenge from the moderately difficult content and will begin eyeing the harder encounters. The problem lies in the fact that they are no longer able to 'carry' the other players into this content. As the group attempts to make this transition, they will only be met with hardship and failure for a time, until the combined skill of the players is enough to overcome the encounter.

From these 3 scenarios, I think its possible to conclude a few things.

That if all content was easy, all the skilled players would eventually become bored.

That if all the content was hard, all the less-skilled players would be frustrated because they cannot win, or bored because they do not try and there is nothing else to do.

That if all content was moderately difficult, it would satisfy for a time, but eventually would result in boredom for those seeking a challenge, and would be impossible for less-skilled players to complete without being carried.

And so, I believe, from these we can conclude that there has to be a diverse array of content provided for at every level of difficulty. However, each level of difficulty must be easy to transition into from the closest previous difficulty level; otherwise, we will have the same problem mentioned in scenario 3, where the group will repeatedly fail until the unskilled players no longer have to be carried.

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Finally, I will end this with my suggestion.

If we want to make the whole of the content available to this type of party, there needs to be one thing. Fluid progression.

FFXIV will need a large array of encounters ranging from incredibly easy to incredibly difficult, and there will need to be a near seamless transition between each level of difficulty. Each encounter does not need to be a dungeon, but the important thing is, every single encounter needs to introduce a new level of complexity, game mechanic, or tactic for players to learn one by one. As players complete each encounter, they continually build up a better understanding of all the game mechanics.

For example, from levels 1-10 Player learns the basics: accepting levequests, engaging monsters, equipping actions, and the ins and outs of the armoury system.

From levels 11-20 Player fights a Dodo or a Puk, and realizes standing in front of the monster will result in either being damaged or put to sleep.

Another example could be taken from FFXI, when you first encounter a Wyrm, you learn rather quickly to not stand on its tail or in front of its mouth. So, from every wyrm encounter after that you already have learned that tactic.

And so on and so on. As Player advances in levels he will be fighting different monsters with different skills and will be constantly building up a base of knowledge that will help him/her later on. So long as there is a seamless transition in content, and there is not a gap between the two, I see unbalanced groups of players to flourish.

So for the developers, make sure from levels 1-50, all players will have learned, through limit break quests/levequests/random monsters, that when they hit 50, they will have the basic skills to engage in the very early easy encounters, and create each encounter as a sort of tutorial for future encounters. As the amount of skills learned from each encounter grows, the difficulty of each progressing encounter grows.

This approach requires a large amount of encounters, but also requires the early content to be simple.

For example, if the whole of FFXIV end game content was 10 encounters.
Encounter 1 would assume the player has all the skills needed get maximum level, the it would introduce one more mechanic or tactic that will be useful in preceding encounters. Because the number of skills are few, this encounter does not require much more than an average battle. Encounter 2 would likewise assume all the skills of the previous encounter and would add another. As, we move from encounter to encounter, Advanced players may skip certain encounters and progress faster, but they would still be required understand the game mechanics to continue. Encounter 3 would assume all previous skills, and for example might require you to incapacitate a certain body part in order to survive the encounter, and each encounter afterward would incorporate this idea.

Then finally encounter 10 may end up being the one dungeon, that while many advanced players will be able to access quickly, it will still be possible for unskilled players to advance smoothly into by mastering each previous encounter.

Well said, it boils down to how to please both casual and hardcore players. It's a tricky problem, and there is no perfect solution to it.

In my opinion, SE tries to attract more casual players to FF14 by making the game more casual and soloable. But by doing so, they're losing the core FF fans faster than gaining new ones because they've made the game less engaging in many ways when comparing to FF11.

FF11 was unique in many ways, and I don't want to start another FF11 vs FF14 discussion here. Some may think FF11 was too difficult (hardcore), to some extent I agree but yet it is exactly why it made things memorable even after quitting the game for years. Ask yourself, how many friends you've made in the course of playing FF11 and they've become friends outside of the game?

For example, the genkai quests (yes yes yes I know) were pretty hardcore for many people especially after the NA/EU launch where most of us were new to the game. Yet, when you look at it carefully, it really helped building interactions/relationships between the players and this is exactly what draws people into an online world - you actually want to log in to finish the quest or help others out. However, you don't feel the same in a game designed to be casual/soloable since everyone can do their own thing and thus it's actually discouraging online interactions between players...which is an irony in a mmo.

Of course I'm not suggesting we should forget about casual players. Just like what the OP was saying - there should be fluid progression so that the more hardcore players CAN help casual players to transition to the more hardcore content while enjoying the game themselves.

There are many ways to provide such "fluid progression" and I'm sure SE knows how to do it since this is not their first mmo.

I think what SE needs to do is make a progression. Start things out slowly, teaching you then go all the way to the other end of the spectrum where mobs will rip you apart in seconds if you screw up.

Things should remain fairly casual in terms of time requirements maby 30mins - 90mins max in this game. But I feel the difficulty should not suffer because of it. I would love a hard casual based game honestly.

The more someone advances the more difficult something should be come. Without a challenge things become dull and boring.

Rank 1-10 activities should be crazy basic and simple. Geared towards teaching people the basics. Maby even having npcs to work with players in instances where you have to make a regiment with a NPC to progress or where you incapacitate a mob. Slowly teach people the more technical parts of the game and introduce it early so they completely understand how it works later. Mainly Solo based at this point.

Rank 11-20 should start putting more pressure on the players have them focusing on more difficult task where "Running in and swinging a sword might lead to death". Start adding some group content at this point but keep it on the easy side to get people use to doing it. Start to put focus on Grouping for better outcomes, but still heavy solo focused.

Rank 21-30 start giving people the meat of the game. Put in the first dungeon more on the easy side, start having some activities which require groups to work together at this point to accomplish a goal successfully.

Rank 31-40 Give people a challenge at this point. Boss instances which require regiments and incapacitation from the group. solo activities which require knowing how your job works and the world around you.

Rank 41-49 Make this semi hard. People should know their jobs now and should be getting near the mastery point.

Rank 50 (Endgame) Make some stuff challenging, some stuff really hard, and some stuff stupid hard. Not in terms of time but in difficulty. Things should go from the difficulty of Fafnir to the difficulty of PW/AV. Yea maby not all the casuals will reach this level of skill, but removing any hardcore elements will chase away that whole playerbase.... which in FF made up the majority of XI. The best gear should not be easy to obtain, it should require skill and knowledge which even a casual with enough time can easily obtain.

I hate to bring up the elephant in the room here, but The game that shall not be named Found a pretty elegant solution to this problem. Scaling difficulty on content, In a way xiv currently has this in the leve system. one star leves are easy and five star leves are insanely hard.

What you guys are saying makes a lot of sense as well If the game was a bit better at teaching its mechanics on the climb to say R40 it would not be as big of a deal. Once a player reaches that point they should possess a good working knowledge of the game. Well done tutorials don't even feel like one, Heck just look at portal about 70% of that game is a tutorial but you don't realise it.

Well you have to remember, a risk/reward system has worked, and probably always worked with creative ingenuity.

FF11 had the famous "chain" system. In which you not only had a race against monsters but a race against the clock. It was very elegant, in using the age old "time attack" addiction to help your problems in having players of different types together.

I expect that kind of thinking on all MMO. It's not about being super orginal or super lipstick ideas, It's about pure elegant solutions that works like it was made for.

I really hope this game gets harder and stops trying to be really uber casual and easymode. If I want easymode instant gratification I'll go play WOW. The things that have always seperated FF mmos from other WOW/WOW clone mmos is the fact that FF mmos are group based, and very challenging. You feel like you accomplished something in FF mmos, something you rarely feel in the other type of MMOs imo.

I hate how the missions in this game are designed in this game right now. They're designed to be soloable which is fine. However, they should not be designed that someone with downs can solo them with zero difficulty, the missions are complete jokes and offer no challenge at all. Why can't they be soloable, yet challenging? Why are they made soloable yet designed so a 2 year old retard can finish them?

I would still prefer missions to be designed like FF11's though. They were pretty much the hardest and more fun things I ever did in that game, and I did all end game content besides 24+ hour repop HNM's or AV/PW. 6 person unzergable missions are really fun and cool ^-^. I don't get this obsession with making things soloable in MMOs nowadays, if you wanna solo why are you playing a MMO, and not a single player game lol?

I'm ok with things taking 60-120 mins, as long as it's challenging. I agree pretty much 100% with everything Xatsh said.

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Originally Posted by Roaran

I think Yoshida understands very well the problems facing many groups of players. While I consider myself a very good player, I have had alot of friends along the way in my MMO experiences, and many of them were good players and many were bad players. But the important thing was, I loved playing with all of them because they were my friends, yet there was always a sort of uneasiness for some who didn't always do the best.

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Something about your post stuck in my brain, and so I wanted to add this concept.

Both you and the original quote divide players into "good" players and "bad" players. Perhaps you even think of it as a matter of degree, like something that a numerical ranking could be applied to.

Let me please point out that there are many, many, MANY things to be good and bad at, and that many of those elements can be present within an MMO, indeed present within combat.

I won't try to give specific examples of this within the MMO-framework, since I'm not sure if other MMOs have every really tried to capture a player-base in this way.

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A person could be exceptionally skilled as a race car driver, with finely tuned reflexes.

A person could be a fantastic martial artist, reacting to his opponent with the perfect counter.

A person could be an extremely talented negotiator, able to reconcile the most seemingly impossible situations.

A person could be a chess or go master, able to out-strategize his opponent.

A person could have a perfect sense of direction, never getting lost.

A person could be an excellent puzzle solver, able to see just how it all goes together.

I'll stop here, but the list goes on and on. And, the point is, some people are exceptionally skilled in some areas, but not in others.

I will confess that I worry about the direction of the combat system, because my reflexes are not excellent, and a "twitch" based system would make it impossible for me to enjoy myself no matter how much effort I put in (in no small part because I would feel that I was letting down my teammates). It is for this reason that I tend to play healers in such situations, as I can more often handle those demands.

Since FF XIV is already trying to chart some new territory with its class system, I hope that eventually allows people with different strengths to work together, and defeat challenges of a nature not seen before in an MMO.

Hopefully the developers will keep in mind that the players that play (or want to play) primarily crafters and gatherers enjoy a play-style that differs from those that excel at fighter or sorcerer combat roles. Ideally, if they become integrated into combat parties, they will be able to take on roles that suit those classes.

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Let me include one (very rough) possibility that has occurred to me.

A mission revolves around a rogue gate from another world, from which monsters are constantly appearing. This gate was constructed in an ancient labyrinth. Perhaps one portion of the mission involves threading through a maze, while constantly spawning monsters appear to impede the players advance. As time increases, more monsters appear, which will eventually overwhelm the party unless they can find their way out. Further, there are the occasional teleporters which move the party around the maze, confusing their sense of direction. A gatherer class in the party, using a skill like Arbor call, and using the generally developed sense of direction gained from keeping track of current resources on a map, would help the party thread through the obstacle. Further, there may be blocked points of rock or wood which a gatherer could clear, creating shortcuts.

At the final battle, the gate itself must be confronted. The gate is continually spawning monsters, as well as a debilitating radiation. This radiation applies progressively worse debuffs to the players, so that the endlessly spawning creatures will overwhelm them, unless the gate can be deactivated. An alchemist could provide some treatment to players, adding some duration of time, but ultimately the gate must be closed down. Closing the gate would be an exercise in puzzle-solving, with a variety of components missing or damaged, thus needing to be repaired or replaced in order to close the gate. A variety of different crafting classes could contribute (thus leading to a decision -- more crafters are more likely to close the gate, but will leave fewer combatants to defeat the spawning monsters). More than simply completing a single synthesis, the crafter(s) must complete a sequence of syntheses, puzzle-fashion, in order to shut down the gate before the time limit is up.

Using randomized monsters and puzzles would prevent the "look it up online and rush through" syndrome, and would allow all classes to participate meaningfully to a mission that all could feel proud of accomplishing, as well as using their own strengths. I think that this would also be a level of gameplay far beyond that seen in most MMOs.

To those of you that read through this post -- thank you! -- I realize it is a bit lengthy

Nice post, Amineri. I totally understand your concern, and I agree that some of us may sound like we want to make the game 10x harder so that it becomes more challenging (and ignoring those who want to enjoy the game in a different way or are simply more casual).

In my opinion,

1. If the game is made "too easy", then it basically discourages team work because everyone can solo and it defeats the purpose of playing a mmo if you ask me. Worse, it creates a cycle and slowly kill the community because it does not draw you into the online world anymore.

2. If the game is made "difficult" enough, sure at first it may be frustrating that you cannot easily progress through the game by yourself. Remember though, there're always people around who are willing to help others out and that is one of the beauty of playing a mmo - making new friends! You don't have to be super good at battles in order to enjoy a more difficult game because your friends will "compensate" something that you're not too good at and at the same time you can provide what they lack of as long as the game provides goals that require teamwork.

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Originally Posted by DarkOrca

In my opinion,

1. If the game is made "too easy", then it basically discourages team work because everyone can solo and it defeats the purpose of playing a mmo if you ask me. Worse, it creates a cycle and slowly kill the community because it does not draw you into the online world anymore.

2. If the game is made "difficult" enough, sure at first it may be frustrating that you cannot easily progress through the game by yourself. Remember though, there're always people around who are willing to help others out and that is one of the beauty of playing a mmo - making new friends! You don't have to be super good at battles in order to enjoy a more difficult game because your friends will "compensate" something that you're not too good at and at the same time you can provide what they lack of as long as the game provides goals that require teamwork.

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I completely agree that FFXIV as it stands is slipping into your category 1. There aren't enough challenging encounters to promote much of a sense of teamwork. The current team I regularly run leves with is slipping more and more into a "race to kill" than really pulling together as a team to fight more difficult challenges. Ironically, the leves were more difficult at rank 25, and have become progressively easier as we have moved up to around rank 35. There may be a bit of a bump when we jump to the rank 40 leves, but the process of encounters becoming easier is a "slow death" as you point out.

In regard to your point 2 ... many great single player games are great because they slowly increase the difficulty level in an intelligent progression. However, players self-select these games based on game type. The type of difficulties of God of War vs. Minecraft vs. Katamari Damaci vs. SOCOM 4 vs. Starcraft II are all very different. What I'm suggesting to the SE dev team is that they try and create an environment that allows for different players with different strengths to come together as a team, rather than the "being carried" mentality. If, for example, SE makes quests that are very much like SOCOM 4, then sure, everyone not good at that style of gameplay will have to be carried, ultimately leading to many of the issues raised in the OP.

I'll admit that it's not a trivial issue to grapple with, and it is certainly much easier to cater in an MMO to one playstyle. SE certainly has been stretching with FF XIV to reach a wider community, so perhaps they will make the effort, and perhaps it will even work ...