Tank Adjustiments -re-b

This game has lost the meaning what it means to tank. before you start raving and ranting? what do you mean.

we have tanks. healers and dps. each have a lane in watch they need to stay within. should be no hybrid or bastarization of these jobs or we have memes like warrior is a healer. or gunbreaker is actually a dps job in .

DPS is important all jobs contribution to it this game forces healer and tank do more then normally do to make up for lack of dps. however cause of dev team stubborniness not wanting give the healer extra damage butts they overloaded the tank with dps buttons instead of trying keep baliance betwene then

this was bad before it starts cause then start shift into giving tanks actual healing abilities this when things started to get bad i remeber when clemacy game on the game didnt think much of it cause its a paladin what type of paladin doesnt have abiltiy to heal others but then start doing it every tank job

and in doing so made healers lose value in the game no one needs healers tanks dont need need be healed at all if they do need healing they just heal themselfs. only cause of wall to wall pulls that healers actually had any value


lets talk about primary functions of every tank job
- they need high hp, defensives, meaningful tank 2nd secondry stat that determines if the tank is good or not
- Enimty needs to return being a thing there no challange you aoe once or twice all those monsters focus'd on you dont have fight anyone for aggro. rather like it or not that was a part of tanking cause now no reason fore provoke to exist other then tank swapping
- Mitigation needs not be overpowered. dull and doesnt suck complete. and easy to use doesnt break your rotation if mid use meaning you mit while mid rotation and lose any dps in process
-- Stunning needs be a thing this would be amazing thing for tanks to do to be able to disturb boss rotations in savages and other hard content doesn't matter 1 tank one solid disturbation in single fight this make tanks feel like they are contributiong more then dps. they also making it easier on there party
- Tanks Need to depend on healers to tank bosses period by no means should you EVER be able to solo any boss in game when rest of your team dies. this is wrong

Most of all You are here to stop as much damage as possible . then dps if dps dont use single mit cause dont need too me just heal its stupid

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HanakoTheGoth

we have tanks. healers and dps. each have a lane in watch they need to stay within. should be no hybrid or bastarization of these jobs or we have memes like warrior is a healer. or gunbreaker is actually a dps job in

---

I mean you lost me there already. This is not only hybrid-class erasure, a tried and perfected thing from all the way back in early pen&paper RPG days and then continueing through all of computer RPG history, but also completely misunderstands the current problem, essentially drawing the inverse conclusion from the status quo than what is happening.

Plus, you then immediately disagree with your own argument by saying all jobs should contribute to DPS. What do you want now? Pure jobs, tanks only tank and healers only heal. Or do you want DPS being DPS, Tanks being hybrid Tank+DPS, and healers being hybrid healers+DPS? Or is this just about your hotbar loadout not the resulting effects? Because in that case sure, but that's not a tank/healer specific issue, that goes for ~all DPS too: FFXIV is a game that uniquely derives awfully little gameplay and relevance from insanely many hotbar buttons. It produces significantly less gameplay from 20+ buttons than GW2 from it's 11-14 if you were to never swap your weapon there. But that's a universal issue and has partially to do with the unwillingness of players to see oGCDs as busywork instead of "lulz muh skill expression".

Nah staying 100% in lane is boring, Warriors self healing is just overtuned, Gunbreaker being a more active tank is fun for people.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

I mean you lost me there already. This is not only hybrid-class erasure, a tried and perfected thing from all the way back in early pen&paper RPG days and then continueing through all of computer RPG history, but also completely misunderstands the current problem, essentially drawing the inverse conclusion from the status quo than what is happening.

Plus, you then immediately disagree with your own argument by saying all jobs should contribute to DPS. What do you want now? Pure jobs, tanks only tank and healers only heal. Or do you want DPS being DPS, Tanks being hybrid Tank+DPS, and healers being hybrid healers+DPS? Or is this just about your hotbar loadout not the resulting effects? Because in that case sure, but that's not a tank/healer specific issue, that goes for ~all DPS too: FFXIV is a game that uniquely derives awfully little gameplay and relevance from insanely many hotbar buttons. It produces significantly less gameplay from 20+ buttons than GW2 from it's 11-14 if you were to never swap your weapon there. But that's a universal issue and has partially to do with the unwillingness of players to see oGCDs as busywork instead of "lulz muh skill expression".

---

Tanks and healers have always contributed to DPS because there has to be a differentiator to allow a floor, there has to be give so that it’s possible for more than only the most pixel perfect players to engage with the roles, but if there is give then some will exceed the baseline and have overflow ability. Those players need a way to meaningfully push the encounter forward

This isn’t encroaching on the DPS (like say WAR does to healers in dungeons) this is just a core facet of how games work.

You can argue 14 always ruins the trinity because of how much damage the supports do (a facet that’s valid but also intertwined with the lore of the character being the canonical strongest human on the planet) but the supports doing damage is at its core not antithetical to the trinity being “pure”

Considering most tanks dont get their group mitigation tools until lvl 70 They would need to do several adjustments. These are multi expansion update.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Tanks and healers have always contributed to DPS because there has to be a differentiator to allow a floor, there has to be give so that it’s possible for more than only the most pixel perfect players to engage with the roles, but if there is give then some will exceed the baseline and have overflow ability. Those players need a way to meaningfully push the encounter forward

This isn’t encroaching on the DPS (like say WAR does to healers in dungeons) this is just a core facet of how games work.

---

But then at what point is DPS also tanking or healing, tanks also healing and healers also tanking no longer acceptable, if tanks and healers also DPSing so readily is? Why is one direction of role-invasion acceptable, but the other two are not?

(that is to say, maybe the issue is not Warriors healing, but that not every other tank, healer and DPS is also off-classing into something else)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

But then at what point is DPS also tanking or healing, tanks also healing and healers also tanking no longer acceptable, if tanks and healers also DPSing so readily is? Why is one direction of role-invasion acceptable, but the other two are not?

(that is to say, maybe the issue is not Warriors healing, but that not every other tank, healer and DPS is also off-classing into something else)

---

As I said, it’s because all roles need a way to push the encounter forward when the baseline of their role is being met

That can be 50% of a DPS’s contribution or it can be .01%, but there has to be a give between the floor and the ceiling and that give must be filled with a way to progress the encounter

DPS simply don’t need this because they are always progressing the encounter

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Carighan

But then at what point is DPS also tanking or healing, tanks also healing and healers also tanking no longer acceptable, if tanks and healers also DPSing so readily is? Why is one direction of role-invasion acceptable, but the other two are not?

---

Because one direction isn't actually role-invasion in any meaningful sense.

In an encounter model where the goal is to get the boss's HP down to zero as quickly as possible, damage dealt per second is an unlimited need. The only way a healer or tank can take away from a DPS's ability to fulfill that need is to actually deal more damage per second than the DPS -- i.e., the point at which people would say, "Screw the standard comp, let's replace a DPS slot with an extra tank or healer because it's faster that way."

On the other hand, healing -- for the sake of argument, think "HP restoration" -- needed is a bounded quantity. An encounter deals only so much damage to the party. This need is supposed to be fulfilled by the healers, but because only so much is actually required, any other role that can restore HP encroaches on the healers. And, indeed, if you can find a way to fulfill that need for HP restoration without a healer, you drop the healer and replace them with a tank or DPS -- anyone who actually deals more damage per second.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AmiableApkallu

Because one direction isn't actually role-invasion in any meaningful sense.

In an encounter model where the goal is to get the boss's HP down to zero as quickly as possible, damage dealt per second is an unlimited need. The only way a healer or tank can take away from a DPS's ability to fulfill that need is to actually deal more damage per second than the DPS -- i.e., the point at which people would say, "Screw the standard comp, let's replace a DPS slot with an extra tank or healer because it's faster that way."

---

You know what this actually implies though? That either:

* All jobs need to be DPS first (not some tanks or healers conceptually, only red icons).
* Or, no job is. There are no DPS, as DPS is a function everyone has to provide anyways, so everyone is X, but also DPS. There are no "just DPS".

Either would work. But the issue becomes that half the jobs are "pure", but the others are not, yet mechanically they are forced to be required (so there is no upside to the hybrid nature). GW2 for example opted to go "All DPS", and it works for them, but it was of course something designed from the group up with every class having a dedicated healing button and all classes having at least some group support or group healing actions, and all classes having at least some options for enhanced endurance. Everyone is a "DPS hybrid".

And that would work here, I think. Maybe the issue isn't that tanks and healers do too much DPSing, it's that tank or healer is a concept including its own role and all. Or like I said, inverse, that DPS is a role that only does DPS. If say, we had 4 roles called "Tank", "Healer", "Buffer", "Debuffer" and it's automatically included that all of these are 50% a DPS and only the other half is that role, that'd also work of course.

Maybe the issue that annoyed me in the previous post was more that FFXIV wants to have its cake and eat it, too: That it wants to superficially say "Yo we got tanks and healers here!", but actually wants everyone to DPS. Unwilling to commit to either bit even to a rough degree. That whole "Either all DPS classes or no DPS classes"-thing.