Job Expansion

What if jobs weren't locked to one role? Sword of legends Online had two variants to each class which sometimes changed what role they play. What if dragoons had two seperate kits for tanking and dps for example? I'd like an expansion where they play with the idea because they sort of let us do that in bozja with essences. I remember going tank monk in zadnor and it being a total blast. Do you think by 9.0 or 10.0 they could do this? Would you want it or hate it? give me your insights in detail and if you have alternative ideas share them as well.

Talk me through how you would change Dragoon's kit so that it could fulfil the role of tank?

Which jobs can you see being a healer? It's easy to see which jobs can be a tank or DPS, but not so much healer. And then, how much of a job are you changing to allow them to become a healer?

What about equipment? Do you need a different set for each spec, or can you use the same pieces of gear?

Depending on how much changes, would it not just be better to create a new job with all the work that is being put into it?

Really, I would prefer they keep jobs in their own roles and just add new jobs to bolster the roster. Not some, what I will assume, half baked attempt to force a job into a role it was never designed for.

Assuming swapping role actions is a given, honestly I feel many melees could do by removing positionals, adjusting their self-defense skill, add stance, invuln, and one more personal and party mit to be pretty close to the rest of the tanks, but perhaps that's more a testament to how few tank mechanics there are job-wise.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Talk me through how you would change Dragoon's kit so that it could fulfil the role of tank?

Which jobs can you see being a healer? It's easy to see which jobs can be a tank or DPS, but not so much healer. And then, how much of a job are you changing to allow them to become a healer?

What about equipment? Do you need a different set for each spec, or can you use the same pieces of gear?

Depending on how much changes, would it not just be better to create a new job with all the work that is being put into it?

Really, I would prefer they keep jobs in their own roles and just add new jobs to bolster the roster. Not some, what I will assume, half baked attempt to force a job into a role it was never designed for.

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Just make it a stance that grant inimity bonus, damage reduction and more HP, unlocking 3-4 skill like taunt and mit.
Fairly easy to do when you think about it. They would be less optimal but still able to do the job.
And theres no healer in this game, just a bunch of subcitizen with low dps and 2 and half bar of healing buttons that serve no purpose but saying "look theres healer in our game".

You can simply add an healer stance to some dps, reducing their damage by 30% and turning them into heals, et voila, you got more effective healers that the actual healers we got in the game simply because they will be less fragile while dealing more damage, and that that only thing that count in this game apparently.

Bozja already has this. Using the right potion + 2 chosen extra skills, any class there can fulfill the role of another class. Would just have to expand on that a bit.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

What if jobs weren't locked to one role? Sword of legends Online had two variants to each class which sometimes changed what role they play. What if dragoons had two seperate kits for tanking and dps for example? I'd like an expansion where they play with the idea because they sort of let us do that in bozja with essences. I remember going tank monk in zadnor and it being a total blast. Do you think by 9.0 or 10.0 they could do this? Would you want it or hate it? give me your insights in detail and if you have alternative ideas share them as well.

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You mean like how the base class Arcanist becomes either a Summoner or a Scholar? Just in adapted to ~all classes?

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Which jobs can you see being a healer? It's easy to see which jobs can be a tank or DPS, but not so much healer. And then, how much of a job are you changing to allow them to become a healer?

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Yeah this is a secondary issue from how bloated classes in FFXIV are, adapting them to something dynamically would always be a huge undertaking (except Tank<-->DPS because let's face it, factually they're largely the same already) because of the 20-30 buttons that need consideration, instead of in other games just 6-10 core buttons and the fluff being disconnected (like Shamans turning into a Wolf or so) and can be largely left alone.

Even then, I think to a degree there's merit in such an idea. A Dancer for example could deal far less damage, but cause perpetual AoE healing around themself with every attack. The bigger dances are burst AoE heals. Dancer Partner receives extra single target healing, with the single buffs Standard Step and thingy being bigger single target heals.

Far from perfect, but doable. Red Mage would be easy-ish. And ought to be able to be a healer if wanted anyways, since they're supposed to be a WHM+BLM hybrid. Dragoon and Monk as tanks. Reaper as a healer would be funky, and I can see them having a rezz! Healers-hybridization is tricky insofar that while 90% of their kit is healing, 80%++ of their gameplay is DPS, so they're in a really weird spot even more than Tanks where at least the majority of the kit is DPS, too. Not just the factual gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Azurarok

Assuming swapping role actions is a given, honestly I feel many melees could do by removing positionals, adjusting their self-defense skill, add stance, invuln, and one more personal and party mit to be pretty close to the rest of the tanks, but perhaps that's more a testament to how few tank mechanics there are job-wise.

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It isn't quite as simple as that though. Removing positionals is a given, it is the re-allocation of actions that need to be considered.

Like it or not, using the current tank defensive framework, you need a short mit, 90s mit, 120s mit, invuln and a raidwide mit. at the very least. So what, from Dragoon's pool of attacks, can be changed? Battle Litany can easily become a raidwide mit, Life Surge and Lance Charge could be changed into, say, short and 120 second mits but that still leaves a 90s mit and invuln you need to fit in.

There is also a consideration in how busy a job can be in a certain time frame. If there is no slots to use for oGCD defensives, it will just become painful to play around, this is the whole reason GNB and DRK gap closers were changed after all.

There is also no point in giving a basic kit and saying, 'that's good enough' when it isn't. Going by your metrics, add a stance, adjust self defence skill, invuln and a personal/raidwide buff, that is less defensives that the tanks currently have. If you want the jobs to be taken into serious content, it isn't enough, so the content is either going to be balanced around the lowest point, or they balance it around the current tanks, leaving this half finished tank behind because it offers nothing.

There is more work that goes into this than I think people realise.

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Originally Posted by Chyro

Bozja already has this. Using the right potion + 2 chosen extra skills, any class there can fulfill the role of another class. Would just have to expand on that a bit.

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I once tanked Delubrum Reginae as a Monk as there were no other tanks among the 23 other people. Despite having a tanking potion and a lost action for defence (the other was for enmity generation), I still felt I was missing out on my defensive capabilities. Remember, Monk had Riddle of Earth as well, so I did have extra. But there were times I still felt too squishy. I also think there were times where I needed a defensive for a tank buster, but had no choice but to take it to the face due to defensives being on cooldown, but I do not remember exactly.

The point being, whilst it is possible to fashion yourself into a pseudo role, you still weren't quite as good and it didn't feel quite right, something was missing. This is why the system Op is proposing cannot just be a half baked idea, it needs to have more careful considerations and be done properly for it to even have a shot at being successful.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Even then, I think to a degree there's merit in such an idea. A Dancer for example could deal far less damage, but cause perpetual AoE healing around themself with every attack. The bigger dances are burst AoE heals. Dancer Partner receives extra single target healing, with the single buffs Standard Step and thingy being bigger single target heals.

Far from perfect, but doable. Red Mage would be easy-ish. And ought to be able to be a healer if wanted anyways, since they're supposed to be a WHM+BLM hybrid. Dragoon and Monk as tanks. Reaper as a healer would be funky, and I can see them having a rezz! Healers-hybridization is tricky insofar that while 90% of their kit is healing, 80%++ of their gameplay is DPS, so they're in a really weird spot even more than Tanks where at least the majority of the kit is DPS, too. Not just the factual gameplay.

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With Dancer, you still need a way to mass heal people quickly, especially in single target damage, Curing Waltz isn't going to be enough and, assuming the dances are still going to be a DPS gain, they will be used for that rather than the burst healing they provide. As for RDM, you will need similar things, a Vermedica is obvious, but a better single target heal, maybe some oGCD heals etc. But this then comes onto another crucial point, if they need to trim down what is already there to fit in the new actions, would that be ok? DNC not having their Fan Dances anymore or RDM not having a melee combo as examples. These buttons for their new role have to come from somewhere and whilst some jobs have some space, not every job does. Something will likely need to be cut to make room, especially in changing a job into a healer.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

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Being able to see jobs as other roles isn't hard. Dancer could be a tank if you say their flashy moves are good at keeping the enemy's attention, and their dexterity allows them to move with the enemy's attacks to turn direct blows into glancing ones. Machinist could be a healer if you say they built a machine that can spray healing potions on party members. Paladin could be a DPS if you remove the shield.

In terms of gameplay, we already have an example of this in Summoner and Scholar. I have to assume any other alternate-role version of a job would follow the same pattern. It would use the same type of weapon (at least visually), but it would be a separate job with different gear and a different set of actions/traits.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

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I'm mostly just bothered that the minimum baseline for tanks are so similar enough that we can generalize it as much as we just did.

We had this in FFXI. Idk why the devs are insistent on removing every form of depth and complexity from jobs in FFXIV. In FFXI you individually leveled every weapon. Every job had different proficiency caps with weapons and every job had access to weapon skills based on proficiency with the weapon while some weapon skills were unique to certain jobs. A Ninja could evasion tank or be a DPS. A DRK with the Apocalypse (relic scythe) could straight up tank things because of the unique weapon skill that the Apocalypse gave even though DRK was a hybrid melee/magic DPS job. The removal of the RPG fantasy aspects from FFXIV is slowly killing the game because most people who play these kinds of games dont want to be treated like a toddler who needs their handheld every single second.