Did I skip something in the MSQ? This part doesn't make any sense to me

I'm currently doing the MSQ, and I'll admit I'm not the brightest crayon in the box. We just flipped the switch on an entire island of endless so that way Sphene has nothing to fight for, got it. We ran around and talked to a few people because Wuk Lamat found value in learning about others and their culture in the first quarter of the MSQ, got it. It's them or us, got it.

I don't get if people are supposed to place value on the memories and endless or what this even is.

These memories (endless) only exist with us now because they all got deleted from everyone else's memory? So how are any endless able to recall or comprehend anyone that died previously to them if that memory of that person is gone? Or do they get it all back in this special zone?

Why is the WoL okay with flipping a switch on an entire island like this? I thought we just did an entire series of expansions leading up to "remember we existed" yet chit chatted briefly with a handful of people before just offing everyone.

But if these things have no value, and this is just a means to an end, then why bother dealing with them at all and getting to know them? bunbun hasn't said word one after knowing his mom is not only dead but an endless and her entire interactive memory is going away. Do endless have zero value because they're not the real thing? But they interact with each other so they kind of make new memories on top of old ones?

I just don't get why the WoL is going through this so fast with seemingly zero issue and why Wuk Lamat of all people is taking lead on conversation. Did we elect her to lead? This isn't her homeland, right? Why didn't we bench her and take Koana or the original scion crew? She's not written to be intelligent, but she's taking all the "here's someone smart, someone smart needs to talk to them" interactions and no one else seems to take notice or be bothered with it.

I know I missed something in the MSQ, but what was it?

Are all people in this region unable to read and write? Historically, sure, a lot of people never learned, but no one wrote down a nameday or a diary to remember anyone by?

You didn't miss anything, Dawntrail is just very poorly written like that. The theme in this zone is clearly supposed to be "sometimes, you have to let people go" but it's handled extremely clumsily. Instead of exploring said theme, you're forced into it and repeatedly being beaten over the head with it.

Before the "they're not real/alive, they're AI chatbots" brigade comes in I'll give you the simplest answer: The writers just didn't think about it that much and likely didn't expect their players to think about it that much. So they both want you to empathize with the named Endless and feel a little bad for turning them off, but no so much that you go well if these people are kinda alive then I'm no better than an ascian.

The memories taken from the living aren't deleted, they are stored on the cloud. The terminals in Living Memory. So yes, once someone dies, they would get all their memories back. However, taking their memories to "spare them pain" causes a bunch of other issues for the narrative. Like why did anyone agree to this? What about written records? What about spare bedrooms? If you kid dies and you have a room for a child and you can't remember why, you'll know what happened. People would have major personality changes if entire swaths of their memory were removed every time someone died. And most importantly, what's the point of the Endless if you're just erasing the memory of the dead anyway? They'd be spared pain if they could remember grandma is right upstairs kicking it by the Ferris wheel. It seems they added that to make the regulators and Alexandrian society seem more dystopian, but it actually causes a lot of plotholes.

As for how we're supposed to regard the Endless, we're supposed to care enough about them to cry when the sad music plays, but we're not supposed to care enough to slow our progression to the final trial. It's another problem due to lazy writing. They tell us the Endless are subhuman and deserving of no consideration whatsoever, but they want us to cry when we delete everyone's mommy so they have them behave 100% human. Very few people are capable of this level of doublethink, so most people just pick one. Either the Endless are AI and everything you do in the final zone is a colossal waste of time or the Endless are people and you're a war criminal.

Choose your poison and enjoy.

The problem lies in how they keep living in there.

They need 'soul' from other shards/source. Keep them living is the same as agreeing to Ascians using people to returns their long lost comrades.

Simple as that

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Originally Posted by Bellybell

The problem lies in how they keep living in there.

They need 'soul' from other shards/source. Keep them living is the same as agreeing to Ascians using people to returns their long lost comrades.

Simple as that

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Which is another side to the writing issue. Sphene's plan would result in the destruction of the Source, which we were told in EW would destroy the shards, which Sphene should recognize is a Catch-22 because the destruction of the 9th would destroy the Endless.

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Originally Posted by evelyn_lhea

We just flipped the switch on an entire island of endless so that way Sphene has nothing to fight for

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Well yes, but she doesn't necessarily know you're doing this because she's obsessed with what she is doing. It's also explained she is not the original Sphene, but effectively a program that will do this no matter what - so even if there's no one left.

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We ran around and talked to a few people because Wuk Lamat found value in learning about others and their culture in the first quarter of the MSQ

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This was really because SE wanted us to "know" the people before turning them off. If you have no emotional connection to the people you are turning off, then the story would have no emotion to it there and it would feel easy to turn it all off. That is why they made Krile's parents Endless and it's why they made Erenville's mother one as well and although we didn't know them as well, it was sad that this person we went looking for got aged a lot in this way.

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I don't get if people are supposed to place value on the memories and endless or what this even is.

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Think of this another way. SE saw ChatGPT and thought "our memories/personalities will all be uploaded and become chatbots" eventually. So they decided to tell a story about it and how it would eventually drain the planet's resources to the point we have to shut it down.

It's not necessarily wrong. If we "backup" every human, then after a million or even a billion years, it would be draining an awful lot of resources to sustain all the data centers for the octillions of humans that have lived, potentially causing us to travel to other planets for the required resources...

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are any endless able to recall or comprehend anyone that died previously

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I think that's the idea - that they get memories back in Living Memory, provided they reside in there themselves. There were also exceptions, such as people who didn't have regulators or died before they entered Heritage Found.

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Why is the WoL okay with flipping a switch on an entire island like this?

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Their aim is to use our (or other shard's) souls. For example, they could go to The First and try to take their souls. So the WoL is trying to save them.

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she's taking all the "here's someone smart, someone smart needs to talk to them" interactions and no one else seems to take notice or be bothered with it.

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They said they wanted to incorporate all the scions but that it's not really feasible with how they design it so what ends up happening is, on an individual basis, they don't have much development or contribution and perhaps this made them not say things they'd be expected to. I think their plan going forward is to just leave most people behind and just bring along the specific scions or characters that are going to be the focus.

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no one wrote down a nameday or a diary to remember anyone by?

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They did! You find this out in some of the sidequests. There are quests where you help them learn about and remember someone that they can't remember based on leftover objects or things they wrote.

The way I view it is that once you become an Endless the memories of the departed are returned back to you, since at that point you would be part of the cloud with everyone else. This assumption is made because of our discussion with the man we returned his engagement ring to. It seems like the program attempts to create these 'chance' meetings so that the Endless can be happy and reconnect with those they lost. They don't know the pain of death because they end up seeing their friends and family again in this sort of afterlife.

Regarding why the warrior of light would be okay with shutting off the terminals has been a big debate, and people have argued whether or not the Endless are considered alive. In the end, we did not have enough time to reliably come up with another solution. Sphene refused to listen to reason no matter how many times we tried. We had to make a choice, and were presented one by Cauchia as a means to both free the Endless and to stop Sphene on her quest to perform interdimensional fusion which would have killed everyone. The system of Living Memory has always been presented as unsustainable, which is why Sphene worked with Zoraal Ja in the first place, for the souls promised to save her people.

To call back to Emet-selch's quote, "Remember us. Remember that we once lived." is something that still sticks with the warrior of light, and it is something we will do with the Endless. Of course we we never meant to see and interact with every Endless that exists, because that is unrealistic, but we will remember them for who they were just like we do with the ancients. People who in an act of desperation fueled by the countless death and suffering they faced turning to a way to preserve what they once had.

To bring up your question regarding Erenville, I think that the reason he didn't want to say anything is pretty simple, and it's that his role model, his mom, is dead, and he had been talking to a simulacrum made of her memories. I imagine most people would struggle to find the words to say, especially knowing that she wants the Endless to be freed, which would mean she would go away too. It would be a lot to take in at once, which would explain why he would go off by himself to think. It doesn't necessarily mean that the Endless have no value.

As for why the warrior of light goes along with this is because of what I mentioned earlier, the need to act. By the time we shut down the last terminal, Sphene is almost ready to begin interdimensional fusion which we know would result in the deaths of everything and everyone. I also don't think Wuk Lamat was ever given the role you've mentioned her having. Her homeland was attacked not just by Zoraal Ja's assault, but by the time bubble being erected on the outskirts of Shaaloani which essentially trapped her own people there which forced them to become Alexandrian citizens.

The reason Koana wasn't the one to come with us is because of what the two of them represent, Resolve and Reason. Koana stayed behind to better prepare Tural for invasion in the event our party failed. Had the roles been reversed, I don't see the sudden declaration by Zoraal Ja to continue the invasion going well for us.

Circling back to the Endless and the Alexandrian people, we do discover that they have records through the side quests. There is one where someone discovers a note and comes to the conclusion that the person who had written the note is their mother. However, they still do not have the memories of her or what she was like.

There is another side quest like this, that occurs after the attack on Solution 9.
I do not wish to share too much as to not spoil anything, but be sure to do the yellow quests if you want to learn more of the lore regarding the area.

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Originally Posted by evelyn_lhea

I know I missed something in the MSQ, but what was it?

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You didn't miss anything, didn't misinterpret anything and you aren't mad. The writing is just that bad and the writers couldn't make up their mind what they were going for or didn't even think THAT far.

It was just very badly written.

I have no issue with the fact we killed them all per se. I do have an issue that in previous expansions we would have gotten to think about it, talk about it, there would be doubts and the characters would look for alternatives, etc. I mean come on, we showed more empathy and understanding during Emet Selch's Amaurot, and that was legitimately NOT people/ascians in any form, more like a depressed dude rewatching a video recording of his dead loved ones. But here we come face to face with actual people, just in a different form, and yet we jump at the opportunity to murder them like it's nothing.

And I do have an issue with the fact that the game kind of contradicts itself in regards to what makes a living being. Did anybody read the lore tabs in Origenics? Or were we not supposed to do that or something? Because everything in Origenics basically proves that people originating from memories are just as legitimate as those originating from "soul". In the end it doesn't make a difference what order you put "soul" and "memories" together in. It still makes Aether of a living being.

Similarly Origenics brings up beings that are not really alive - aka a soulless body infused with multiple souls but no memories. THOSE are not alive. But as soon as proper memories come into play, along with a corresponding soul - you have a living being made of aether, same as any of us are.

If they wanted to put a focus on the fact that the Endless are not sustainable (which is a fact and a crucial one at that), then they should have done that. But they didn't. It gets mentioned like twice, and nobody bothers to elaborate or once again think of alternatives or of a smaller scale or anything at all. Cahciua basically tells you "don't think, there's no other options, just trust me on that, only kill" and we... go along?

It is my head cannon that the WoL is progressively more brain damaged with every expansion due to all the damage they sustain in battles. The WoL of now is a completely different person from the one I remember in Shadowbringers. Ardbert would give us a whopping if he could.