Why is Mumyo Shoha translated to Shoha II on the English Client?

This Translation leads to a misconception that Shoha II replaces Shoha (which it does not!) which led to misguided suggestions to merge those skills, even though Shoha II and Shoha are very similar to Foul and Xenoglossy and I didn't encountered any Black Mage Player who wants to merge those skills.

Probably on the same logic as things like Fire II being the AOE equivalent of Fire. It's pretty common among the mage classes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Iscah

Probably on the same logic as things like Fire II being the AOE equivalent of Fire. It's pretty common among the mage classes.

---

High Fire/Blizzard II confused me so much when I got them because I was like "Where's High Fire/Blizzard I? Did I somehow skip something?"
Nope, XIV's English skill naming convention has just gotten weird and convoluted over the years. ꉂ (´∀｀)ʱªʱªʱª
I've seen a few newbies get confused by this and think that Fire II was an upgrade to Fire, so they should spam that, regardless of if the situation is single-target or AoE.
Hell, just look at WHM, Glare > Glare III, like we're going to get an AoE Glare II. No clue why Holy III is a thing either. ( ಡ艸ಡ)

Japanese and German have the traditional FF suffixes (Spell > Spella > Spellga > Spellja (JP) or Spellka (DE)), while French adds a word in front of their spell upgrades (Spell > Extra Spell > Méga Spell > Giga Spell).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mimilu

Japanese and German have the traditional FF suffixes (Spell > Spella > Spellga > Spellja (JP) or Spellka (DE)), while French adds a word in front of their spell upgrades (Spell > Extra Spell > Méga Spell > Giga Spell).

---

I'd like something more like that, please. The fact that the EN team didn't even commit to their <skill> I, II, III, hierarchy sort of irks me. SMN has 'Ruin', which progresses to 'Ruin I', II, and III, with IV being its own conditional skill that acts more as a single-target attack with splash damage.

The fact that this confusing discrepancy exists only furthers why we need a faithful translation over localization that deviates.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Telkira

The fact that this confusing discrepancy exists only furthers why we need a faithful translation over localization that deviates.

---

Let's talk about discrepancies for a moment.

• Cure - ST
• Cura - ST alternative to Cure
• Curaga - PBAoE
  
• Stone - ST
• Stonera - ST upgrade to Stone
• Stonega - ST upgrade to Stonra
  
• Holy - PBAoE
• Holyga - PBAoE upgrade to Holy
  
• Medica - PBAoE
• Medicara - PBAoE alternative to Medica
  
• Fire - ST
• Fira - Targeted AoE
• Firaga - ST alternative to Fire
• Firaja - ST alternative to Fire and Firaga
• High Fira - Target AoE upgrade to Fira
  
• Thunder - ST
• Thundara - Targeted AoE
• Thundaga - ST upgrade to Thunder
• Thundaja - Targeted AoE upgrade to Thundara
  
• Ruin - ST
• Ruinra - ST upgrade to Ruin
• Ruinga - ST upgrade to Ruinra
• Ruinja - Targeted AoE

Given all those spell names, can you tell me what any of the suffixes mean?

Do the suffixes ---, -ra, -ga, -ja denote direct power increases (upgrades)? No: only one of the spell series above follows that rule.

Does -ra upgrade a --- spell directly? No:
Cura is a separate spell from Cure, even though it is effectively a much better Cure.
Fira and Thundara are AoE spells, not upgrades to Fire and Thunder.
The direct upgrade to Holy is Holyga.

Does -ra make a spell AoE? No:
Cura is not an AoE cure.
Holy and Medica are already AoE with no suffix.

If a single target --- spell has an AoE -ra relative, are -ga and -ja upgrades to --- and -ra, respectively, as in the Thunder line? No: Firaja is a single target spell completely separate from Fira, and Firaga is a separate spell from Fire.

This is not any of the numbered Final Fantasies where the suffixes were meaningful. It worked up through X because there was a direct upgrade hierarchy of ---, -ra, -ga, -ja. It worked in XI because all the single target spells were ---, the PBAoE spells were -ra, the targeted AoE spells were -ga, and targeted AoE spells with special added effect were -ja. It doesn't work here because neither of those things is universally true of the XIV spell lines. By the way, XI also used roman numeral numbering on top of the suffix system, to denote direct upgrades to each spell, and this was also meaningful and useful there.


The point here is: names are an interface. If the suffixes don't encode any meaning--that is if you can't look at Spell and Spellra and determine what -ra means other than "Spellra is different from Spell"--then they are no more meaningful than just numbering the spells, and if it comes down to a difference between invented numbering via suffixes and just using plain Arabic or Roman numbering, then it is objectively more accessible to a wider player base to use the plain Arabic or Roman numbering because they already know the difference between 1, 2, 3, and 4 or I, II, III, and IV without having to learn what the invented numbers ---, -ra, -ga, -ja mean.

I personally prefer suffixes too, from the perspective of a lifelong FF player. However, those suffixes need to be meaningful and systematic, and implementing a meaningful suffix system at this point is a non-starter. The names of spells that we've already been using for ten years would have to change and that would just make the already-out-of-date old internet info even worse. Because so many players are bad at restricting search results to the past year or six months, it would confuse a lot of people even more because the old guides will talk about Thunder -> Thunder III and Thunder II -> Thunder IV vs new guides talking about Thunder -> Thunder II and Thundaga -> Thundaga II. Fire, Fire II, Fire III, Fire IV, High Fire II vs Fire, Firaga, Fire II, Fire III, Firaga II. Etc.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RyuuZero

This Translation leads to a misconception that Shoha II replaces Shoha (which it does not!) which led to misguided suggestions to merge those skills, even though Shoha II and Shoha are very similar to Foul and Xenoglossy and I didn't encountered any Black Mage Player who wants to merge those skills.

---

Hi. BLM player who thinks Xenoglossy and Foul should be merged. Xenoglossy is exactly a single target Foul. The moment you learn Xenoglossy, Foul is even upgraded to have its same instant cast. When you are syncked down and only have Foul, even with its lower damage it is still worth using in single target, but it awkwardly requires you to press your Foul button at lower levels at times that you would be pressing your Xenoglossy button--and if your hotbars make any sense, the Foul button is next to your AoE attacks and away from your Xenoglossy button. There's no need for these two to be separate buttons. Just start with Foul, and then at the Xenoglossy level make Foul instant and add additional damage to the first target. This saves a button and eliminates the sync issue.

Shoha and Shoha II are the opposite: Shoha II is an AoE Shoha. As such it does not need to be a separate button: just add splash damage to Shoha at that level. Shinten and Kyuten could use the same treatment. Guren and Senei are back to the Foul/Xenoglossy relationship, though merging them would have the side effect of either increasing Senei's range to 10y or reducing Guren's targetable range (but not its effect range) to 3y.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

The point here is: names are an interface. If the suffixes don't encode any meaning--that is if you can't look at Spell and Spellra and determine what -ra means other than "Spellra is different from Spell"--then they are no more meaningful than just numbering the spells, and if it comes down to a difference between invented numbering via suffixes and just using plain Arabic or Roman numbering, then it is objectively more accessible to a wider player base to use the plain Arabic or Roman numbering because they already know the difference between 1, 2, 3, and 4 or I, II, III, and IV without having to learn what the invented numbers ---, -ra, -ga, -ja mean.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rongway

I personally prefer suffixes too, from the perspective of a lifelong FF player. However, those suffixes need to be meaningful and systematic, and implementing a meaningful suffix system at this point is a non-starter. The names of spells that we've already been using for ten years would have to change and that would just make the already-out-of-date old internet info even worse. Because so many players are bad at restricting search results to the past year or six months, it would confuse a lot of people even more because the old guides will talk about Thunder -> Thunder III and Thunder II -> Thunder IV vs new guides talking about Thunder -> Thunder II and Thundaga -> Thundaga II. Fire, Fire II, Fire III, Fire IV, High Fire II vs Fire, Firaga, Fire II, Fire III, Firaga II. Etc.

---

Had SE simply stuck with the suffix-based convention, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now, and people would be less confused since no expectations would be had, especially for newer players who might view the use of numbers or numerals as linear power upgrades, and not as different skills.

If they do decide to give players a secondary English language (EN-JP) option to play the game with, then using the conventional naming conventions would be a neat treat.