Let's talk about pre pull Hyoton and ninjitsu combos

I know there is a NIN 7.0 request thread already, but I wanted to address these two things specifically about NIN going forward.

I'm sure I am not alone in the frustration of pre pull Huton. Sometimes, it even feels like the tank is directly trolling me with taking forever to pull only to do so right when I decide to refresh it. I'm curious on your suggestions on how to handle this.

I've thought about the speed buff from Huton becoming a passive trait like they did with greased lightning for MNK, but this was ill received as it took away about half of what was fun about that job. Then, there's the issue of what to do with Huton that keeps it viable.

Next thought is to not change anything and just continue to deal with it. However even if every tank suddenly adopted the mindset to use a countdown, the whole Huton + Hide to reset ninjitsu is tedious and lame. Honestly, I hate it with a passion.

My last thought was ninjitsu combos, which I think would not only solve this issue, but fundamentally change how NIN is played for the better. My suggestion is to give NIN a third mudra charge, and adding AoE damage to Huton with falloff for additional enemies. It will still always be better to maintain the buff, but Huraijin can be pruned from the kit with this change.

This also got me thinking about ninjitsu combos to eliminate other buttons such as Meisui, Kassatsu and possibly even TCJ. So many skills such as Goka, Hyosho, Raiju, Meisui, Nozuchi, even Phantom are all skills that can follow their respective styles after the initial ninjitsu cast and all on the same button.

I think that's all I have in mind for now. Hope everyone is having a good day.

Edit: I meant Huton. My bad.

When Hide expires, grant Huton.

/micdrop

There's no need to change anything, high-end duties always have countdowns and anything that isn't a high-end duty you can pop Huton extremely early or just Huraijin and it won't make any difference.

As for removing TCJ, Meisui and Kassatu, that's kind of half of the ninja burst gone without any suggestion on how you would replace them, ninjutsu combos doesn't really explain much and it sounds like it would only end up hurting ninja by limiting their oGCD priority choice usage and forcing them to become static with little choice.
The 3rd mudra charge would most likely just end up being saved for more Raitons vs using it on Huton would be a dps loss no matter what, and if you remove Hide reset then ninjas are gonna be asking for 20 sec countdowns to Huton prepull to keep their 3rd charge.

Having a button to refresh your Huton timer out of combat, or making it so Huton doesn't count down outside of combat, feels like they'd be the best fixes to it; you still have to Huton before combat, but there'd be no need to time things perfectly for pre-pull Huton+Hide.

If that change was made, I personally kinda like Huton+Hide (as a very casual Ninja player); Hide has relatively few uses with how the game works and not being usable mid-combat, so I appreciate it still having a use in terms of refreshing your Mudra as a part of pre-pull setup.

All that said: the change I expect to see if they try to do something about this, would be "Huton cannot be used outside of combat" or "Huton's effect goes away upon using Hide", similar in effect to them changing Doton to be removed upon using Hide. Prevents pre-pull Huton from being a thing at all and would (as far as I can tell) basically force Huraijin to be used early in your opener to give yourself the buff.

"can only gain the effect of huton during combat"

what the devs would probably do.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

There's no need to change anything, high-end duties always have countdowns and anything that isn't a high-end duty you can pop Huton extremely early or just Huraijin and it won't make any difference.

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I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I also don't excuse subpar openers because, "it doesn't make a difference." It's also one of the reasons why I frown upon abilities like Huraijin in general because such abilities encourage bad play. The moment such things are acceptable, then arguments involving ice mages, heals-only healers, or not using AoE on trash pulls go out the window.

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As for removing TCJ, Meisui and Kassatu, that's kind of half of the ninja burst gone without any suggestion on how you would replace them, ninjutsu combos doesn't really explain much and it sounds like it would only end up hurting ninja by limiting their oGCD priority choice usage and forcing them to become static with little choice.

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Meisui exists because of TCJ. Hence, why it is gained @lv72. With TCJ gone and the implementation of ninjitsu combos, the ability would no longer dispel Suiton and just grant the Ninki and increased potency to Bhavacakra as a follow up to Suiton. Kassatsu in its current form will no longer be needed with ninjitsu combos because you will always have access to Goka and Hyosho as follow ups to Katon and Hyoton respectively. However, I think Kassatsu can be a passive buff granted through use of certain skills in order to increase the damage of Hyoton and Hyosho so they get priority over Raiton during burst windows. The potency added from Kassatsu to Goka can simply be baked in. NIN is already static, there is very little variation to their oGCD priority. Plus Kassatsu already gives NIN a psuedo third mudra charge since NIN can utilize ninjitsu without consuming the resource. Pre-pull Huton also serves as a third mudra charge, which is what lead me to that suggestion.

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The 3rd mudra charge would most likely just end up being saved for more Raitons vs using it on Huton would be a dps loss no matter what, and if you remove Hide reset then ninjas are gonna be asking for 20 sec countdowns to Huton prepull to keep their 3rd charge.

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Mudra no longer being available outside combat fixes this. Right now, NIN has access to two ninjitsu outside combat that can be executed: Huton and Doton. The latter has already been rendered useless for the exact reason you mentioned here. I think it might be a good idea to prepare mentally for this change because I believe it to be very possible. If Huraijin is also pruned, then it will force NIN to open with Huton, and that's why I suggested to add damage to it.

That sounds really boring. Sounds like the job will play by itself with everything being passive and there being no buttons.
But I also don't main ninja so whatever, if ninja mains want to destroy their job then have fun.
also the removal of doton prepull was a complete souless change so I guess that tracks.

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Originally Posted by ZiraZ

That sounds really boring. Sounds like the job will play by itself with everything being passive and there being no buttons.
But I also don't main ninja so whatever, if ninja mains want to destroy their job then have fun.
also the removal of doton prepull was a complete souless change so I guess that tracks.

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More buttons =/= a more fun job to play. Especially if some buttons aren't really necessary. NIN has 32 buttons in its kit, and that's not including buttons that change into other skills upon certain conditions like the various ninjitsu, Phantom, and a macro to unhide. Who knows what is being added to their kits in 7.0 to expand that even further. The idea isn't to simplify the job, but rather just make its skills flow in a way that makes more sense.

Anywho, it's all just suggestive and it's cool to disagree. I'm just more or less tired of pre-pull Huton, and dislike pre-pull skills in general.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I also don't excuse subpar openers because, "it doesn't make a difference." It's also one of the reasons why I frown upon abilities like Huraijin in general because such abilities encourage bad play. The moment such things are acceptable, then arguments involving ice mages, heals-only healers, or not using AoE on trash pulls go out the window.

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using Huraijin's intended purpose is far from encouraging bad play or "incorrect" playstyles. is it sub-optimal? sure, but who cares about that in anything under Savage? it's one GCD. just use it lol

I feel that a simple fix would be just let the Huton timer stop outside of combat. Likewise for BLM, to make the Enochian clock stop, because the whole gig of "keep spamming Umbral Soul while you run from enemy to enemy" is kind just as lame as the Huton's inconveniences pre-pull.