...what would that look like?
I know a lot of people loved SB, but I remember hating it on WHM because SB WHM sucked. But seeing Avarell's post here - https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6384245 - and it got me to thinking, what would it look like if we merged them...sorta?
For example, there was a SCH discussion in the healer forum about if SB SCH being imported into the game exactly as it was would work, and the general consensus is that it would...but...it'd be nice if it had incremented since then, and there are some things from ShB/EW that people would like to keep rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater, such as Expedience and Pet AI improvements and responsiveness.
On the other end of the spectrum, SB WHM was arguably the worst iteration of the Job in the entire history of FFXIV - for those who didn't play it, it had some really...questionable...design choices. For example, casting Cure 1 and Cure 2 on targets had a chance - 20% - to give them a confession stack, which was then utilized by Plenary, which healed based on the number of stacks. It was changed relatively quickly to a 100% chance from using Medica, Medica 2, and Cure 3 on party members, and the heal was based on the number of stacks...but how that even got through testing to go live in the first place still boggles my mind to this day. Oh, and you had to have at least one Lily to use stuff like Benison. And how did you get those? You had a 50% chance (changed, again rather rapidly, to 100%) of generating a Lily each time you cast Cure or Cure 2 on self or a party member (while in combat). It was very...odd...and went through a number of iterations and micro-reworks during SB's patches.
...there's a reason that SCHs were crying when ShB came out but WHMs were singing the praises of "Blood for the Blood Lily".
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In any case: Clearly there has been some good since SB, and even most who say SB was the height of healer design in the game are comfortable saying so. WHM, in particular, was generally praised as better.
So, rather than trying to turn back the clock and go down the alternate timeline of what might have been had we kept developing from SB's line, I'm curious, what if we had the two dimensions merge and took the best from both.
What would that look like?
EW WHMs + Aero 3, 18 sec Dia, and Fluid Aura?
SCHs with macro Embraces, Miasma 1 and 2, Rouse, Bane, Expedient, and 90 sec Recitation?
ASTs with Astrodyne and Balance fishing, River and Crown Play sharing a button with Minor Arcana?
2.5 sec cast times for everyone who isn't AST?
SGEs with...uh...well, okay, SGE is just SGE...
But for the other three, what exactly would that look like?
Healer Jobs, SB + EW - - If they could be combined...
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11-21-2023, 11:48 AMRenathrasHealer Jobs, SB + EW - - If they could be combined...
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11-21-2023, 02:59 PMRenathras
This was a genuine question. But anyway, found a period video on WHM from patch 4.3 for those curious what it was like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwQjhCQFu0Y
...I had forgotten that Fluid Aura's damage was removed before SB. Thought that was a ShB thing, but apparently it did no damage in SB either, it was just a 30 sec CD that did a knockback and bind with no damage. I suppose to get WHMs to stop annoying tanks by using it in dungeons or something?
So is there anything here other than Aero 2 and Aero 3 that people would even want on WHM now? The old Plenary is kind of odd, Benison being HP % based was interesting, but is that better or worse? And I'd HOPE no one wants to go back to that Lily system?
Going to see if I can find some period SCH and AST videos to see what other abilities they had that we're forgetting about. But there was more going on with SCH...at least I'm pretty sure there was... -
11-21-2023, 03:05 PMDoragan
Why making another healer (damage) thread when there's already one about this topic already? On the 1st page at that.
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11-22-2023, 12:28 PMRenathrasBecause this isn't about healer damage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doragan
It's what parts of the entire healer kits - damage, healing, and traits - that would be the result of doing this, and what that would look like. A specific, mechanical discussion, not a more general discussion about completely different ideas for healer damage kits only.
In other words, not the same topic or discussion.
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When people say they want SB WHM back, what do they mean? They want to have to cast Cure 1 on people to get Lilies so they can shave off a whole 6 seconds from Benison's CD? SURELY that's not what they're asking for.
Is it JUST 18 sec Dia and 24 sec AOE Aero 3?
Because that's a very different thing than people asking for Quake/Tornado/Flood, combo actions, BLM-like cast times and DPS phases, and so on.
EDIT:
There's also this weird thing where people tend to...say something, but it's not really what they want.
For example, people say they want SB things back on healers, but when you ask them what they want, they propose entirely new ideas, abilities, and rotations instead.
So this question is asking "What, specifically, from SB do you want back on each of the healers, and what from ShB/EW would you consider good additions you might also like to keep (things like Expedience)?"
I think that's a fair topic. Sides' which, this is a discussion forum, is it not? Are you gatekeeping discussions? Why not just...have them. If you don't think it's an interesting topic, don't post in it and let other people if they wish to do so. /shrug -
11-23-2023, 10:34 PMJovakim
Okay, you asked me to post that here, so here it is.
Don't get me wrong though, I'm still with others in the forum who want a little more than what I listed above. For example, I especially like FonsakenRoe's and ty_taurus' rework ideas for WHM and SGE respectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovakim
With all of that said, I still wouldn't say no to your 4 Healer Model™ and leave WHM for people who want a minimal amount of interactivity with their buttons. Three out of four healers is not a bad deal for me, and the Twelve know I'm desperate enough with how healer design is going to accept such a deal. -
11-24-2023, 06:58 AMRenathrasFair enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovakim
Honestly, your idea sounds fine to me, especially if we get encounter designs that allow for more healing. Technically doing Aro 3 + 18 sec Dia + SB Cleric would be changes/more buttons, but they're changes I could live with. That'd be two more outright DPS buttons (Aero 3 and Cleric) as well as more frequent Dias. But those are really the only parts of SB's WHM that weren't garbage.
How do you feel on SCH and AST? SB damage for SCH and HW/SB Cards for AST added to their current kits? -
11-24-2023, 11:03 AMJovakimYeah, I should have added my thoughts to my last reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
So, for SCH I would agree with what many have been asking for and bring back Miasma, Miasma II, Shadowflare, and Bane.
As for changes, they could replace Art of War with Shadowflare entirely! If Shadowflare reacted to every Broil cast by pulsating extra damage, it would probably work.
Also, it would probably be wise to let the SCH be able to relocate the Shadowflare placement during its duration since we're not usually in control of where a pack of mob goes. The cooldown and duration of the skill would likely need to be readjusted as well.
(I also find it very aesthetically weird to see a book nerd punching the ground. I would say good riddance to Art of War)
Miasma II could be reworked to have a cooler name and animation, as well as having extra functionality instead of simply being the "big mana cost" DoT.
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I didn't get to play AST during SB so I don't have a strong opinion on Royal Road or the old Sleeve Draw, but I would be excited to see Time Dilation make a comeback.
Bringing back the utility for the Arcana deck would be great, but only on the condition that all damage increase buffs be separated from it. That is, the damage buff cards would now be part of the Minor Arcana and be drawn from it. Lady of Crowns being stronger for the ranged and Lord of Crowns for the melee, as they used to be in ShB.
The Arcana deck itself could draw some inspiration from the PVP cards we had throughout EW:
- All of them would be AoE;
- The Ewer and The Bole could easily be translated into PVE without much changes;
- The Arrow would pretty much be another Expedience, but without the damage reduction;
- The Balance, The Spear, and The Spire would be more difficult to imagine. One of them could replace the Lady of Crowns we have now and another one could be a shield. The last one... I guess I'll just let the designers figure it out, haha.
Oh, and since we would be dealing with all of this utility, I believe Spread would be a nice skill to bring back! EW's Minor Arcana is proof that we need a way to hold a healing card for longer or it probably goes to waste.
Edit: I can't believe I forgot to put Nocturnal Sect here! I honestly don't care if it turns out to be the weakest shield healer in the game, having such versatility was amazing and very helpful.
Just to clarify. If your 4 Healers Model™ somehow became a reality, those SB returning skills wouldn't necessarily need to be a thing. I was just listing them and giving my opinion on why they could be good additions to whatever WHM might become in Downtrail.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras