how long did it take you to learn your dps job to a comfortable level?

So, I am still learning dragoon. I am trying multiple other dps jobs and had a fair share of jobs I like and jobs that aren't for me. So for the dps job(s) you enjoy, how long did it take you to learn it in a depth that you feel comfortable with?

To dragoon players specifically: how long will it take to really learn the job (when to do raid wide buffs, certain rotation nuances, life as a dragon, etc)?

One of the things the game doesn't do well is explain what the intended or optimal rotation for any job is. They leave that to the players to figure out. This is fine from a game design philosophy perspective, but it does make learning how to do things well almost impossible without reading a player-written guide, for most players. Once you've found a good guide, learning a rotation is mostly just a matter of sitting down at a Lv1 target dummy and pressing buttons until you get used to it.

As for buffs, the current standard has everyone's buffs on 2 minute or 1 minute cooldowns, so using buffs at the right time is really just about activating them at the right spot in your opener, then using them on cooldown thereafter. The nature of cooldown timers will have everyone's buffs lining up if everyone is using them on cooldown. From there, carve out exceptions with your party members when specific fights have downtime or mechanics that conflict with the 2min burst, and hold buffs accordingly.

Hitting the dummy for about an hour at level cap.
Going over my opener, and then learning how to line up other resources with the 2 minute window.

It was actually pretty easy with SMN because you had to start from the beginning back then.

You started with Ruin, then to Bio, then to Miasma, Bane, then Golden Carby, then another Bio then another Miasma, then Ruin 2 (insta cast), Pet commands, you didn't get the Enkindles until 50th so it didn't come for a while. It just didn't tell you all the Bios and all the Miasmas stacked. So you had to figure that out for yourself. I seem to remember there being 3 Miasmas (one was an AoE), and 2 Bios, and then you'd use Bane to spread them in an AoE.

You also had to use the Contagion from Garuda once you went SMN so that it would extend the duration and you didn't have to keep spamming 5 different Poison DoTs each with a different duration and constantly keep tabs on the timers. That was the hard part. Figuring out how they all fit together though was pretty easy. Eventually they added Dreadwyrm past 50th, but they show you how to use it in the Quest Line. The only thing they didn't tell you was to make sure you use the controls on Egis as little as humanly possible or you'd regret it.


The wonky one was RDM when it first came out, because that one doesn't even show you the basics like BLM did.

So I remember taking up the class and going ok... so supposedly this job double casts. *casts Verthunder*
OMG this takes forever to cast, then casting it a second time right afterwords, like a dual Verthunder, or a Veraero afterwards thinking OMG this is wayyyy too long of an initial cast time.
Well this Jolt one is pretty fast maybe if I use that one first it will work.... yup, guess that's how you do it. (Not exactly intuitive, but doable)

Then I decided... ok well it looks like the Red Button is the first one you use... so... lets try the AoEs now...
*casts Scatter*....
Huh? Why is this taking so damn long to cast!
*Clicks Verthunder2*
Well that was fast... wait... wtf? This one is completely backwards... you do the opposite for this one?
The first version was Jolt to start it off... the AoEs you do the complete opposite and start with the Verthunder first... then close with Scatter?
Who thought that a good idea?

I don't know if it's better these days... but back then it was just a lot of... ???... and that was before you even got into the more complex stuff like putting all the other things together in a coherant whole.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

It was actually pretty easy with SMN because you had to start from the beginning back then.

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Playing with an incomplete action set for many levels makes it really easy to develop bad habits. Good rotations are easier to learn with a complete action set.

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Originally Posted by Silverquick

The wonky one was RDM when it first came out, because that one doesn't even show you the basics like BLM did.

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The RDM NPC literally tells you how to Dualcast in the first combat quest.

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Originally Posted by X'rhun Tia

...Ah, but before we resume the hunt, let us be sure of your technique. As a red mage you are capable of casting two spells in rapid succession using what is known as the “Dualcast” effect.

Intone a short spell, and you will find that a lengthy incantation can now be cast in an instant. Take advantage of this technique to bombard your foes with arcane destruction!

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In other words, hardcast a fast spell and then instant cast a slow spell.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

Playing with an incomplete action set for many levels makes it really easy to develop bad habits. Good rotations are easier to learn with a complete action set.

The RDM NPC literally tells you how to Dualcast in the first combat quest.

In other words, hardcast a fast spell and then instant cast a slow spell.

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Well that is actually what I did.

The problem is that's kinda vague. So you have to experiement with it yourself. It's not like BLM where they tell you outright to use Fire to do damage and Ice to do MP restore and then use Transpose to switch between them and walk you thought those parts. On top of that, its completely backwards doing Single Target vs AoE spells. Which of course takes another very non intuitive leap. Which is what made RDM so wonky to start with vs SMN back then.

I also disagree,

It is better to get the techniques one at a time as they fit together so you understand how they fit together, then you can start experimenting with what works best for you. You need to learn to crawl before you can walk. Case and point if you try BLM without every having learned those basics, and try to jump straight into Enochian, first of all you're likely going to be lost. Secondly, you have a better chance of developing bad habits if you don't even know the basics of how to run it and manage to figure it out anyway.

RDM though you had no choice, it was figure it out on the fly whether you wanted to or not.

any tips on figuring out when is the right time to buff the party? Should it be my first action in my raid?

I dont know that BLM is the best example for your theory. The correct rotation changes every 10 levels or so, but the game stops teaching useful techniques by like level 10. The class quests focus on sleep, begging for mercy, crying, and running away. They might teach transpose, but this stops being standard before level 50(falling out of the "rotation" into the "post fight" or "edge-case optimization" categories). They never teach how to effectively use flare(or its single target version later). In AoE situations double(up to quad!) flare is the intention, but they teach none of that - you need to piece it together yourself from trait and spell descriptions or find a rotation guide on the internet.

All of which is to say, bad habits are just as easy to develop getting one skill at a time as they are to develop with a class that starts at level 70 with 90% of its kit in hand.

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

any tips on figuring out when is the right time to buff the party? Should it be my first action in my raid?

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Generally, if your buff or debuff lasts 20 seconds, use it immediately after your first GCD during the fight (not whatever you pull the boss with). If it's 15 seconds, weave in after 2 more GCDs (the third). DNC is a special case because Technical Finish'll take time to deploy, so start it immediately after the fight starts and it'll buff everyone at the right time (after those 4 dance steps, and you weave Devilment in right after the buff so both it and Tech are on your partner for 20 sec simultaneously); remember to pull the boss with a readied Standard Finish so you and your partner are stronger immediately and because it's a big hit you want on cooldown asap. They kinda design most jobs around fitting everything in every 2 min within that period of 15 to 20 seconds.

If you're playing something more out of the loop like AST, try and keep an eye on any job in your party that has a more defined rotation, like DNC, as Technical Finish'll buff everyone in your party every 2 min. Knowledge of other job buffs can help.

As you get deeper, sometimes it helps to hold buffs, like during an add phase where the boss isn't attackable (if the boss will return before your buffs come back again) because extra damage on the add phase doesn't usually help your group beat the boss faster unless it's struggling with the adds themselves. Another case is when you have multiple of the same job. Since jobs get cooldowns usually every 60,90 or 120 seconds, if you're the second DNC in a party try to use your 2 min every odd minute while the other DNC hits every even minute of a fight. This goes for debuffs on a target too, like SCH's Chain Strategem or NIN's Mug, as these effects cannot stack but everyone in the alliance raid benefits while they're active.

Also, this isn't as much of a thing anymore, but be mindful to watch to see if your buff actually hits everyone. For example, sometimes boss hitboxes are huge and the tank insists on standing waaaay at the far end of it for no reason so you might not reach them, or your buff might return right after the group spread out for an attack.

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Originally Posted by Local_Custard

any tips on figuring out when is the right time to buff the party? Should it be my first action in my raid?

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If you want to build good habits, use your raid buff after your third gcd. There is wiggle room for it (Reapers and summoners use their raid buff earlier than the 3 gcd typically), but for every other job its pretty much standard. The only reason for this is that it takes on average 3 gcds for all jobs to really get the momentum going with their rotation so you even if you yourself aren't "amazing", your alignment makes the people in the party who are well practiced, better. I recommend the balance's website. They have a little info chart of how your rotation should go and multiple openers depending on your job, try them out and see which one works best for you!