There was far less content in Heavensward than in Endwalker

And yet, people remember it fondly.

Why is that?

The simple answer is that a lot of Heavensward's content was fresh, something that players have not seen before. It felt like something brand new.

PotD felt fresh to players. We have never seen something like that before. Whereas Eureka Orthos feels like a reskin of PotD and HoH with close to zero new ideas.

The major reason why Endwalker feels bad for many players isn't actually the volume of the content. It's the volume of excitement. There is very little exciting new content in Endwalker, and the few new things they put in Endwalker have been very uninspiring, like the horrendously shallow Island Sanctuary and Variant dungeons being only three routes that are padded to become twelve with next to no difference in gameplay (unless you count pushing a tree or not pushing a tree as a meaningful difference in gameplay).

It's also the fact that the systems have overstayed their welcome. We've been on the same gear treadmill for nearly 8 years now. Same use for tomestones. Even something as mundane as crafting recipes have become so predictable that one can farm half of what they need with confidence before the patch is even live.

And the regular content that we're receiving no longer has the charm. Every dungeon and non-Ultimate raid today are reusing the same mechanics again and again: stack, spread, dodge left, dodge right, in, out, pyretic, move around, look away, etc.

Even if Dawntrail releases field content, the same criticisms will remain because people are sick of the formula. We desperately need a shake-up and far, far more innovation.

FF14 in Endwalker is not an atrocious game, but it is just boring. Unexciting. Samey. Rehashed.

Never get tired of seeing Heavensward brought up in this context. Early HW AST was nearly unplayable. Diadem flopped, got redone, and flopped again. Feast 2.0 did nothing to revive PVP. HW raiding almost killed the raid scene outright. All of it added up to make 3.4-3.5 kinda sleepy community-wise.

I would really, really think twice before holding HW up as a paragon - it's very easy to turn it into a golden age fallacy.

I really liked the HW story which is why I probably look upon HW so favorably. I can't say the same for EW, however.

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Originally Posted by Sindele

Never get tired of seeing Heavensward brought up in this context. Early HW AST was nearly unplayable. Diadem flopped, got redone, and flopped again. Feast 2.0 did nothing to revive PVP. HW raiding almost killed the raid scene outright. All of it added up to make 3.4-3.5 kinda sleepy community-wise.

I would really, really think twice before holding HW up as a paragon - it's very easy to turn it into a golden age fallacy.

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At the same time, it also had some of the best content and design we've seen in the game - A8S, DRK, MCH, PotD, GPose.

It also created the first treasure dungeon, the first custom delivery, the first field content, the first Savage raids...

It's a controversial expansion, with a lot of good and a lot of bad, but it at least did a lot of the things for the first time that we now take for granted.

But EW doesn't have a lot of good. The bad of EW is also not bad like HW's bad, it's bad in the sense that it's just boring. What is there in EW that was done for the first time? Island Sanctuary is a glorified Doman Reconstruction with a clunky UI. Variant is a regular dungeon with multiple routes. Criterion is three short Savage bosses smashed into a corridor. Even these things that EW has made for the first time is just a rehash of previous ideas.

Wondrous Tails was not the joke it is now. It actually caused you to open party finder, join a party and tackle extremes together. It was a social experience you went through up to 9 times each week and you got rewards such as minions for doing it. Yes, we unsynced them even then, but you couldn't solo even ARR extremes then. We could argue that Unreals do that now, but it's just the one and it's more serious because it's almost synced to Minimum IL.

Almost nobody had all jobs leveled so leveling them gradually by partying with your FC, doing roulettes or FATE farming was a thing (in fact, it wasn't until the Amaro came out that I started to see a majority of people put more effort into getting all the jobs up fast). But now anyone who has played since ARR, Heavensward or even Stormblood has had a humongous amount of time to level them all so it's no longer much of a content.

I agree about PoTD being good then because it was fresh. It didn't seem that the ones after were necessarily a problem. It's just that when people got what they asked for, it felt too much like copy and paste. The good news is they said the one in Dawntrail will be different, so it seems they have acknowledged this issue.

The relics created social interaction with FATE farming and light farming. You'd need a full party to farm A1S or A9S for it, so you could find some moments to chat about things. But now we just dump tomestones.

You could hang out at Idyllshire with your mount and interact.

I think beside having more excitement due to being new, it was also just doing a better job of creating social interaction in these ways. You all felt like you were progressing together doing these things and could interact together. Now it's more like you're soloing it and keeping to yourself (Island Sanctuary, Variant, tomestone dumping for relics).

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

Every dungeon and non-Ultimate raid today are reusing the same mechanics again and again: stack, spread, dodge left, dodge right, in, out, pyretic, move around, look away, etc.

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I think they want to re-use old mechanics but in different ways, whilst also adding new ones gradually over the game's life.

But I have a question: can you think of a lot of different mechanic ideas yourself that could not be described as "stack, spread, dodge, in, out, pyretic, move around, look away"?

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Wondrous Tails was not the joke it is now. It actually caused you to open party finder, join a party and tackle extremes together. It was a social experience you went through up to 9 times each week and you got rewards such as minions for doing it. Yes, we unsynced them even then, but you couldn't solo even ARR extremes then. We could argue that Unreals do that now, but it's just the one and it's more serious because it's almost synced to Minimum IL.

Almost nobody had all jobs leveled so leveling them gradually by partying with your FC, doing roulettes or FATE farming was a thing (in fact, it wasn't until the Amaro came out that I started to see a majority of people put more effort into getting all the jobs up fast). But now anyone who has played since ARR, Heavensward or even Stormblood has had a humongous amount of time to level them all so it's no longer much of a content.

I agree about PoTD being good then because it was fresh. It didn't seem that the ones after were necessarily a problem. It's just that when people got what they asked for, it felt too much like copy and paste. The good news is they said the one in Dawntrail will be different, so it seems they have acknowledged this issue.

The relics created social interaction with FATE farming and light farming. You'd need a full party to farm A1S or A9S for it, so you could find some moments to chat about things. But now we just dump tomestones.

You could hang out at Idyllshire with your mount and interact.

I think beside having more excitement due to being new, it was also just doing a better job of creating social interaction in these ways. You all felt like you were progressing together doing these things and could interact together. Now it's more like you're soloing it and keeping to yourself (Island Sanctuary, Variant, tomestone dumping for relics).

I think they want to re-use old mechanics but in different ways, whilst also adding new ones gradually over the game's life.

But I have a question: can you think of a lot of different mechanic ideas yourself that could not be described as "stack, spread, dodge, in, out, pyretic, move around, look away"?

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Actually yes:

Ridorana's Construct 7 prime number mechanic. (You can even extend it to make a Sudoku-like mechanic)
Staggering CCs so that different orbs resolve their raidwide damage at different times (A6S, A8S, and arguably E8S)
Mini maze mechanic but done in a more engaging way than just get to the endpoint (O3N)
Dragging adds under AoEs to resolve mechanics (like Xelphatol but at a Savage level), think of a volcano eruption that you exploit to kill ice sprites.
etc.

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

Actually yes:

Ridorana's Construct 7 prime number mechanic. (You can even extend it to make a Sudoku-like mechanic)
Staggering CCs so that different orbs resolve their raidwide damage at different times (A6S, A8S, and arguably E8S)
Mini maze mechanic but done in a more engaging way than just get to the endpoint (O3N)
Dragging adds under AoEs to resolve mechanics (like Xelphatol but at a Savage level), think of a volcano eruption that you exploit to kill ice sprites.
etc.

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We could also use more fights that utilize the actual arena (P2 and P10 come to my mind off the bat as more recent examples)

Side note: Math bot unironically is my favorite fight in Ridorana and one of my favorite Critical Engagements in Bozja, it's a lot of fun lol

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Originally Posted by Noumenon

Ridorana's Construct 7 prime number mechanic. (You can even extend it to make a Sudoku-like mechanic)
Staggering CCs so that different orbs resolve their raidwide damage at different times (A6S, A8S, and arguably E8S)
Mini maze mechanic but done in a more engaging way than just get to the endpoint (O3N)
Dragging adds under AoEs to resolve mechanics (like Xelphatol but at a Savage level), think of a volcano eruption that you exploit to kill ice sprites.
etc.

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I see, good ideas.

I feel this explains it better than just saying to make something other than "in, out, stack, spread". I think this would be good feedback (if they actually would read the English forums :D).

Heres why I personally like every expansion expect endwalker.

First Heavensward was about a dragon war, and you felt that feeling from the second you entered heavensward you could see the effect the dragons had, the war the emotions the fear and the loneliness of being on your own, it felt good and the buildings style also felt amazing you first walked in and started your quest through it, it felt like you were living in a dragon war between that and dealing with the braves it just made you feel like that every second.

stormblood: literally you could feel the pain the flames of war the very second you walked into the zone it was and visibly felt like a battle field, we had wild nature the AU'ra it was amazing playing through the story and what little jokes we had were done perfectly like the little sun joke still lives with me forever.

Shadowbringers: Although I personally didn't like this one all that much, it made you feel like this was bad the suffering and the migraines it gave you made you want to butcher t he lightwardens, we had twist and turns and the story telling made you feel what it was aiming for.

Now endwalker: This is why I dislike endwalker, First it starts off like oh we go to sharlyan and we just there after the big fight with father and the forum that just magically allows us to go there just because (legit plot nonsense) at the very start, then we go through and we take down a tower, then again and again and again we are fed bs jokes between estaina being bad with money, and the scions eating hamburgers .. laugh and giggling joking around every single second, and by the time the "Final day" starts its not even full day we hardly lose anyone when the end of the world is going on, we get one garland suicide and a few nobody background charac ters being eaten .... Then at the very end we asspull revive the scions AGAIN (like legit)

Then the story self destroyed itself with Meteion I agree with her, but if Hydlyan told Emet-selch and his friend what happen after time reset then they could have delt with hermes and sent out a gaint fox or something that uses dynamic to kill her, It left a massive plot hole. So not only was the story horrible the amount of things we were given only lasted about 2-3 hours then you have to wait 4 months for a patch to get on for 2-3 hours..

sorry but no other expansion was as bad story telling and content wise.. that made you feel like meha

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

But I have a question: can you think of a lot of different mechanic ideas yourself that could not be described as "stack, spread, dodge, in, out, pyretic, move around, look away"?

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More puzzle mechanics like the math robot, using our position to mark the solution to some mental problem, doesn't have to involve math.

Rotating some mirrors to make a projectile bounce to a target, avoiding the path of things we don't want to hit.

Killing adds with various different properties in certain positions. Some adds absorb materials, some repel them.

Generally increase the usage of duty actions or mounts like the gobwalker to give players additional actions that they can't usually use, for example to expose a weak point.