SE, don't overthink Summoner 7.0. Just give people what they want. Just do it.

Leviathan.

Ramuh.

Shiva.

That's. It.

Please. Don't overthink this. Don't do something weird and pointless.

We don't need "Ruin 5".

We don't need "Summon Bahamut II".

We don't need "Energy Vacuum".

We don't need some weird fourth gauge that we consume to ride Susanoo around like a mount for 15 seconds and force enemies to engage in Active Time Events.

Please. Don't try to "subvert expectations". Don't.

Just do the thing.

Just give us the rest of the Classic Final Fantasy Summons™.

Just do it.


"But the Lore says that they need to come from a weird mutated Carbuncle gem, or something!"

Okay sure, here:

• Aquamarine Leviathan
• Amethyst Ramuh
• Sapphire Shiva

There, done. Let's move along.

"B-But you can't summon Shiva! That's blasphemy!"

Sir and/or madame. We've been carting around Louisoix's desecrated memory like a designer handbag, in direct disrespect of his final wishes, for 4 years now. The ship of sanctity sailed back in Shadowbringers.

What matters now is, "Will this increase pre-order purchases if it appears during a Live Letter?" And the answer — which SE's board of directors will be happy to hear — is a resounding, YES!

So not only will this make Summoner players happy, but it will also increase SE's revenue, which can then be reinvested back into Forspoken 2. Win/win! (?)

And anyway, you can think of it as honoring someone's memory, rather than an enslavement — since we are, after all, just play-doh'ing Carbuncles into effigies of Primals... not actually performing a true summoning.

_
"But we just can't figure out any way to add anything more to Summoner. It's just too hard. It's just not possible. It's perfect already."

Haha that's okay, I know life can be hard sometimes, so I'll do your job for you, free of charge.

Step 1:

• Summon Bahamut and Summon Phoenix are now two separate actions, with a shared cooldown.
• When Bahamut ends, you are granted an Astral Bonbon. (mmm, bonbons)
• When Phoenix ends, you are granted an Umbral Bonbon.
• When you have both an Astral and an Umbral Bonbon, you can unleash your

LEVEL 100 ULTIMATE SUMMONER ATTACK

"But... what is my LEVEL 100 ULTIMATE SUMMONER ATTACK??"

Well honestly, I don't rightly know. But here's some random ideas that I spent < 30s thinking about. Pick one, or devise a different one:

Tri-Apocalypse

• Summons the entire Warring Triad to do high-potency damage to everything in a 20-yalm radius around you.
• Possibly as a four-step combo chain: Demi-Sephirot (Ein Sof Ohr) → Demi-Sophia (Scales of Wisdom) → Demi-Zurvan (Ahura Mazda) → Tri-Apocalypse (all three at once).

Summon Alexander

• Summons Demi-Alexander, who teleports into the future to cast Judgement.
• After a 10 second time delay, deals massive damage to the target and all nearby enemies.
• Then it "rewinds time" (heals the party for a large amount, and Esunas any cleansable debuffs).

Demi-Sundering

• Demi-Hydaelyn and Demi-Zodiark drop down from the sky and fight each other.
• Then Demi-Hydaelyn shatters Demi-Zodiark, and everything in a 30-yalm radius takes 140 potency damage 14 times in a row. These are guaranteed Critical Direct Hits.

Step 2:

Okay, so now we've given you a mechanical incentive to use both Bahamut and Phoenix, even though they have a shared CD.

So then it's not a problem if...

• Activating Summon Bahamut grants 3 Astral Arcanums: Emerald, Amethyst, Ruby. (Astral Elements: Wind, Lightning, Fire)
• Activating Summon Phoenix grants 3 Umbral Arcanums: Aquamarine, Sapphire, Topaz. (Umbral Elements: Water, Ice, Earth)

There, now we have:

• A reason to use both Bahamut and Phoenix
• A reason to use all 6 Summons
• Some amount of flexibility in deciding the order to arrange it all, based on choosing Phoenix First or Bahamut First
• No extra keybinds added (Astral and Umbral arcanums are mutually-exclusive, so they can share their action slots: Garuda/Leviathan, Ramuh/Titan, Ifrit/Shiva)

"But... leveling! How can we ever fit all of this into the leveling system?!"

Don't panic! It's really quite simple: just give up on people who haven't bought the expansion! Trial players HATE this one simple trick!

• Level 91 and below: You're still stuck with the boring ARR Summon Crew that you've known for 10 years. Sorry buddy.
• Level 92: Activating Summon Phoenix grants an Aquamarine Arcanum, rather than an Emerald Arcanum. While Aquamarine Arcanum is active, Summon Garuda becomes Summon Leviathan.
• Level 94: Activating Summon Bahamut now grants an Amethyst Arcanum, rather than a Topaz Arcanum. While Amethyst Arcanum is active, Summon Titan becomes Summon Ramuh.
• Level 96: Activating Summon Phoenix grants a Sapphire Arcanum, rather than a Ruby Arcanum. While Sapphire Arcanum is active, Summon Ifrit becomes Summon Shiva.
• Level 98: New action — Ruby Light. It's Magicked Barrier, but for Summoners.
• Level 100: LEVEL 100 ULTIMATE SUMMONER ATTACK
  

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"But what would Leviathan, Ramuh, and Shiva even do? There's just no design space left! We have already exhausted all possibilities! Even ChatGPT has no ideas, despite being asked politely multiple times!"

Haha don't worry, there's actually plenty of design space left! Here's some examples I spent < 5 minutes thinking about, just to make the point. Feel free to replace them with something better!

Aquamarine Leviathan —————————

Summon Leviathan

• Casts Tidal Wave when summoned.
• Grants 2 stacks of Water Attunement.
• Grants 2 stacks of Leviathan's Favor.

Water Attunement

• Gemshine becomes Aquamarine Rite while under the effect of Water Attunement.

Aquamarine Rite:

• Consumes 1 stack of Water Attunement.
• 1.5s cast, 2.5s recast.
• Range: 25 yalms
• Drops a giant bubble on the target.
• Afflicts target with Grand Fall, which stacks up to 2, and decreases target's Water Resistance by 50% while at least 1 stack remains.
• Grand Fall duration: 10s
• Upon reaching 2 stacks, Grand Fall automatically strikes the target with Whirlpool, which deals Water damage.

Leviathan's Favor:

• When gaining the effect of Leviathan's Favor, Astral Flow randomly changes to either Body Slam or Spinning Dive.

Body Slam

• Requires and consumes 1 stack of Leviathan's Favor.
• Instant, 2.5s recast.
• Range: 20 yalms
• Causes you to leap up and body-slam down upon your target, and all targets along your path, for Water damage.
• Body Slam deals increased potency when striking a target's Flanks.
• After using Body Slam, if any stacks of Leviathan's Favor remain, Astral Flow changes to Spinning Dive.

Spinning Dive

• Requires and consumes 1 stack of Leviathan's Favor.
• Instant, 2.5s recast.
• Range: 20 yalms
• Causes you to whirl forward as a human torpedo and strike your target, and all targets along your path, for Water damage.
• Spinning Dive deals increased potency when striking a target's Rear or Front.
• After using Spinning Dive, if any stacks of Leviathan's Favor remain, Astral Flow changes to Body Slam.

Amethyst Ramuh —————————

Summon Ramuh

• Casts Judgment Bolt when summoned.
• Grants 4 stacks of Lightning Attunement.
• Grants 4 stacks of Ramuh's Favor.

Lightning Attunement

• Gemshine becomes Amethyst Rite while under the effect of Lightning Attunement.

Amethyst Rite

• Consumes 1 stack of Lightning Attunement.
• Instant, 1.5s recast.
• Range: 25 yalms
• Zaps the target with an electric shock.
• Each use of Amethyst Rite grants you 1 Lightning Orb, which will condense nearby and begin to rotate around your body.
• You may carry a maximum charge of 4 Lightning Orbs.

Ramuh's Favor

• While under the effect of Ramuh's Favor, Astral Flow becomes Shock Strike.

Shock Strike

• Range: 25 yalms
• Requires at least 1 Lightning Orb to activate.
  • Consumes all currently-held Lightning Orbs when activated.
• Requires at least 1 stack of Ramuh's Favor to activate.
  • Consumes 1 stack of Ramuh's Favor per Lightning Orb consumed.
• Instant cast, Instant recast.
  • Recast is increased by 1.0s per Lightning Orb consumed.
• Deals damage to target and all targets nearby it (5 yalm radius).
  • Deals 100% more potency per Lightning Orb consumed (linear scaling).

Sapphire Shiva —————————

Summon Shiva

• Casts Diamond Dust when summoned.
• Grants 3 stacks of Ice Attunement.
• Grants 1 stack of Shiva's Favor.

Ice Attunement

• Gemshine becomes Sapphire Rite while under the effect of Ice Attunement.

Sapphire Rite

• Three-step combo chain.
• Each combo step consumes 1 stack of Ice Attunement.

Sapphire Rite Combo Step 1: Hail Storm

• 2.0s cast, 2.5s recast.
• Range: 25 yalms
• Forms a staff of ice, and strikes the target with falling icicles.
• Grants 1 stack of "Dreams of Ice".
• "Dreams of Ice" increases all Ice damage you deal by 10%.

Sapphire Rite Combo Step 2: Avalanche

• 1.5s cast, 2.5s recast.
• Range: 15 yalms
• Forms a bow of ice, and strikes the target with an icy arrow.
• Grants 1 stack of "Dreams of Ice".
• "Dreams of Ice" increases all Ice damage you deal by 10%.

Sapphire Rite Combo Step 3: Icebrand

• Instant, 2.0s recast.
• Range: 6 yalms
• Forms a sword and shield of ice, and strikes the target with an icy blade.
• Grants 1 stack of "Dreams of Ice".
• "Dreams of Ice" increases all Ice damage you deal by 10%.

Shiva's Favor

• While under the effect of Shiva's Favor, Astral Flow becomes Absolute Zero.

Absolute Zero

• Requires and consumes 1 stack of Shiva's Favor.
• Consumes all stacks of "Dreams of Ice".
• 3.0s cast, 3.0s recast.
• Deals Ice damage to all targets in a 20-yalm radius around the Summoner.
• Potency increased by an additional 300% per Dreams of Ice stack.

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Other things that should probably change, maybe

Remove Summons from GCD / Make Summons Abilities again

• Endwalker SMN has a lot of rotational "dead spaces": a Summon GCD is animating, and you the player are GCD-locked, but you aren't really personally "doing anything" to the target; you're just waiting for your Summon to finish showing-off. I think that this contributes to current SMN feeling somewhat clunky and sluggish.
• OGCD Summons would make Summoner feel more responsive, and play at a snappier pace.
• OGCD Summons would naturally make Summoner cast more Spells (to replace the former Summon GCDs), which is good, since it's a Caster.
• OGCD Summons would allow space for a few extra GCD actions in the 60s rotation framework (such as new 7.0 actions).

"Noooo then Ghosting will come back!!"

Don't panic! Just make Summon Bahamut and Summon Phoenix 6 stacks, like 6.0 Inner Release, 6.30 Hypercharge, etc.

——————————————

Clean off actions that no longer fit the SMN fantasy

• Aetherflow system
• Energy Drain
• Energy Siphon (Please, this is worse than "Shoha 2". Why does this even exist?)
• Fester
• Painflare

These all feel like tacked-on leftovers of a Job that no longer exists.

What am I even causing to "Fester"? There's no biological DOTs any more... It's just weird. wiggles fingers Poof! You are festering! Somehow! For some reason! Even though I'm a Primal Mage!

And Summoner probably doesn't need Aetherflow any more at all, it just feels like vestigial baggage from Arcanist. I'd rather have the Summon mini-rotations themselves become more interesting.

For example, Summon Bahamut could just allow you to follow up every 2x Astral Impulse with 1x OGCD "Astral Spark", replacing Fester as the 60s OGCD dump. And so on...

——————————————

Does Ruin IV even need to exist?

• Ruin IV — aesthetically, conceptually, and mechanically — also feels randomly tacked-on, and not really fitting the Job's theme any more.
• This would probably also be better-off replaced by something more "Summoner-y".
• Or just cut completely, to allow more new actions into the 60s cycle.

——————————————

There's probably no need for both "Rites" and "Catastrophes".

The "Rites" could just automatically cleave nearby targets, cleaning up a hotbar slot.

——————————————

Do something with Carbuncle

Low-effort solution:

• Delete him.
• But that's sad.

A different solution:

• Replace Aetherflow with some other Gauge that fills up when you use Arcanums. Let's call it CARBUNCLE POWER.
• After using all 3 Arcanums every 60s, you have enough CARBUNCLE POWER to cast Ruby Metamorphosis.
• Ruby Metamorphosis transforms Carbuncle into PROTO-CARBUNCLE, who will then lunge at targets that you attack, and attempt to consume their entrails.
• This would function similar to Living Shadow or Automaton Queen.

——————————————

Give Summoner a new utility action, "Ruby Light".

• Reduces magic damage taken by self and nearby party members by 10%.
• Creates a barrier around self and all nearby party members that absorbs damage totaling 5% of maximum HP.
• 10s duration, 120s CD, 15y radius.
• There — now SMN has another iconic Summoner action, Carbuncle gets to be a bro and do something useful, and SMN gains more parity with RDM in the "not BLM" caster slot (ie, the two "Support Casters" now both bring "Caster Tactician").

——————————————

Probably make Rekindle an AOE heal?

Actions that require swapping your target to party members while DPSing are annoying, and often pressure people into making clunky Mouseover macros.

Rekindle as an AOE heal would still be useful for helping the party in various situations, but would have improved usability and, probably, more cases where it actually feels useful.

——————————————

Make Physick not terrible

Yes, here we are again, the obligatory Physick commentary that we come back to every 2 years.

How useful is Vercure, actually? RDM doesn't want to cast it during uptime; it really doesn't help that much to keep people alive for long, because it's very weak; and even solo, you're paying a price in damage output, which is a cost, even in places like Deep Dungeon.

Furthermore, SMN doesn't really have time in its rotation to sit there casting Physicks, so it would be a clutch / last-resort tool... like Vercure already is.

So... I hold the opinion that Physick scaling from Intellect would not actually be a balance problem at all.

Also, maybe replace Physick with something more "Classic FF Summoner"-ish, like "Sylph" or "Unicorn". Although I guess Ramuh might object to summoning Sylphs...

Honestly, it's not too difficult to make the other 3 feel distinct. Bahamut and Phoenix don't need to be separate buttons, just have one part of the cycle be Astral and the other Umbral, problem solved.

One (probably Shiva) = 4 short (1.0 sec) cast attacks + 1 charge time "finger snap" break.
One (probably Ramuh) = 4 1.5 sec cast attacks (4 arbiters) + 4 instant cast oGCD lightning zaps.
One (probably Leviathan) = 2 extra long cast (5 sec) big hits + 2 instant cast movement water bubble things like Aqua Veil (to use if you need movement during the phase) and each cast of the instant cast reduces the cast time of the long cast by 2.5 sec, meaning if you use the instant casts first, you can either make one of the long casts instant or make both of them 2.5 sec.

Bam, that's already different than the three existing ones, and both Shiva and Ramuh here have distinct attacks based on their fights (Levi I wasn't really sure what to do with, but this 2 and 2 thing is kind of neat since it gives the player agency in how they want to approach the phase.

Also agree on making Physic not abjectly suck. Could be a Moogle (Good King Moogle Mog the XIII, may his pom shine forever?!) animation when you cast it or something. Phoenix's heals already scale off Intellect, and neither Clemency nor Vercure are considered overpowered, and Vercure can be Dualcast to make it into actually a half-decent heal in a pinch. Clemency, too. Both do ABOUT as much healing (2x Vercure or 1x Clemency) as a Cure 2, give or take. Definitely suboptimal for RDM/PLD to use, but for needed healing, they're actually not bad. And in a sticky situation, RDM can use VerCure+VerRaise to get a quick heal on themselves or the Tank while restoring downed party members. Compared to all that, a Cure 1 strength/Vercure (1x) strength Physic is hardly overpowered.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Eorzean_username

Leviathan.

Ramuh.

Shiva.

That's. It.

Please. Don't overthink this. Don't do something weird and pointless.

We don't need "Ruin 5".

We don't need "Summon Bahamut II".

We don't need "Energy Vacuum".

We don't need some weird fourth gauge that we consume to ride Susanoo around like a mount for 15 seconds and force enemies to engage in Active Time Events.

Please. Don't try to "subvert expectations". Don't.

Just do the thing.

Just give us the rest of the Classic Final Fantasy Summons™.

Just do it.


"But the Lore says that they need to come from a weird mutated Carbuncle gem, or something!"

Okay sure, here:

• Aquamarine Leviathan
• Amethyst Ramuh
• Sapphire Shiva

There, done. Let's move along.

"B-But you can't summon Shiva! That's blasphemy!"

Sir and/or madame. We've been carting around Louisoix's desecrated memory like a designer handbag, in direct disrespect of his final wishes, for 4 years now. The ship of sanctity sailed back in Shadowbringers.

What matters now is, "Will this increase pre-order purchases if it appears during a Live Letter?" And the answer — which SE's board of directors will be happy to hear — is a resounding, YES!

So not only will this make Summoner players happy, but it will also increase SE's revenue, which can then be reinvested back into Forspoken 2. Win/win! (?)

And anyway, you can think of it as honoring someone's memory, rather than an enslavement — since we are, after all, just play-doh'ing Carbuncles into effigies of Primals... not actually performing a true summoning.

---

I love it.

...but you had me at the SUSANO QTEs so let's go with that instead.

These are all cool ideas and I appreciate the effort that’s been put into them. I always thought the idea of cycling Summon abilities would be cool. Something like you Summon Bahamut then do the standard 3 summons, then summon Phoenix and they change to Shiva/Ramuh/Leviathan or something.

Unfortunately though I have seen the future in the cards and SE’s 7.0 Summoner will be identical to 6.0 except there will be 2-3 DoTs sprinkled on to because 99.999% of Summoner feedback is ‘give dot’. So it’ll be like Summoner with a side dish of poison Mage, because of course Summoners (and Scholars) are well-known in Final Fantasy as sickness spreading disease carriers who inflict misery and plague on all they encounter

That made me laugh. I approve. Also, Phoenix and Bahamut should be different buttons. It's just dumb that I'm forced to heal everyone because my rotation is so inflexible and *then* the raid-wide hits. Bring back more strategy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Connor

Unfortunately though I have seen the future in the cards and SE’s 7.0 Summoner will be identical to 6.0 except there will be 2-3 DoTs sprinkled on to because 99.999% of Summoner feedback is ‘give dot’. So it’ll be like Summoner with a side dish of poison Mage, because of course Summoners (and Scholars) are well-known in Final Fantasy as sickness spreading disease carriers who inflict misery and plague on all they encounter

---

Agreed. Almost all feedback on New SMN is people who love it because it's easy to understand, play, and it works well bringing good damage and lots of utility (good enough, anyway - poor RDM...), and on the other side, people who hate it because they love DoTs and want a DoT Mage in the game. (I especially hate that as a Healer main since I hate DoTs and LITERALLY EVERY HEALER has one forced down their throat). So you're probably right that it'll be the same thing + Bio. <_<

This is why we can't have nice things, people!

It's especially funny you point out (sarcastically) SMNs and SCHs aren't know for it. In FFXIV lore, SCH's are explicitly not carriers - the Toonberries who were SCH's lost their SCH powers when they were corrupted, meaning no actual SCH is infected by their plague since that prevents...being a SCH. And SMN as a "Green Caller" was always weird to me.

imo, what people should be pushing for instead is a second Job rather than "Old SMN back". SE isn't going to give you Old SMN back. They've never reverted a full on Job rework before, and they're unlikely to do it with one they were so clear on why they had to change. Thing is, Old SMN had enough abilities to easily populate two entire Jobs, a Summoner (which is what we have) and a status effect/affliction/DoT caster (Green Mage). Instead of demanding a reversion that will never happen, people should have asked for a separate Job. We're overdue for a new Caster at this point, anyway.

Hell I'd be happy with single oGCD abilities for Ramuh, Leviathan and Shiva.

Rework the Aetherflow system from level 90 onwards.

Upgrade Energy Drain to Hydro Shot
Upgrade Energy Siphon to Pom Holy
Upgrade Fester to Shock Strike
Upgrade Painflare to Hailstorm

Now all ARR Primals are covered