Eukrasia vs Dyskrasia Idea

One of the things that logistically doesn't fully make sense with SGE is the use of the term "Eukrasia" and what the effect does. Essentially, the idea of making something "Eukrasian" implies you're making something more beneficial to the body, and the opposite of this would be Dyskrasia, which would mean making something more harmful to the body.

Currently, Eukrasia does all of these effects depending on the spell you cast, and Dyskrasia is just your AoE button that never gets touched outside of dungeon trash. So here's a relatively simple yet interesting concept that involves reworking these terms to give SGE more room to be creative with its tools. Before actually going into those concepts, let's first lay a little groundwork:

1. SGE maintains having an AoE button, but we rename it to something else to use the term "Dyskrasia" for our new system.
2. Addersting becomes true DPS neutral in some fashion while also discouraging Addersting dumping during buff windows, such as giving Toxikon a cooldown of 20 seconds. This lets it be used more freely even if you'll still save 1 Addersting for buffs.
3. Krasis and Taurochole are removed as their effects will be utilized for new methods.

With these details in mind, let's talk a little about this simple concept:

Eurkasia largerly stays working the way it does, but the effects it provides will change. Dyskrasia becomes effectively the same--augmenting your next spell cast in a negative fashion. Both of these would also be given an MP cost, and MP management would revolve largely around using your Eukrasia and Dyskrasia effects. With this in mind, let's take a look at how this would affect Dosis and Diagnosis:

Dosis is our main DPS filler button, dealing damage and triggering a kardia heal. While under Dyskrasia, it becomes Dyskrasian Dosis, which is our current DoT, and also provides a Kardia heal. Under Eukrasia, Eukrasian Dosis changes to become a single target heal of higher potency, grants 1 extra Addersgall, and applies Krasis to your Kardia target.

Diagnosis is our standard baby heal, but now also triggers a kardia heal. While under Eukrasia, it becomes the same Eukrasian Diagnosis we're familiar with while also now triggering a kardia heal. Under Dyskrasia, it becomes Dyskrasian Diagnosis, an offensive spell that applies a selfish vuln up on the target for 1 minute that affects only the SGE's damage, grants 1 Addersting, and applies the Taurochole 10% mitigation to your Kardia target.

Our new AoE DPS spell and Prognosis would largely reflect these changes in AoE form. Additionally, we would want to create some method where SGEs can proc a buff that makes their next Eukrasia also generate Addersting, giving you more freedom to use direct healing abilities. Eukrasian Dosis and the AoE DPS spell would be more about providing clutch healing that can replace Pepsis for emergencies, and may not always be used, but creates a potential safety net to catch struggling healers while being more directly effective at being clutch healing unlike Pepsis which can feel quite clunky.

This logic of Eukrasia and Dyskrasia could also extend farther into other GCD tools to further build upon this foundation.

That sounds good on paper but as pessimistic as it may sound, the devs are too patronizing on the role and would think that 'stance dancing' like that would be too hard.

At the bare minimum, Sage needs an aoe Kardia, and maybe a huge boost to Soteria so Kardia feels more like a "dps Cure/II" than just a cheap Eos knock-off, and one that stops when you stop attacking, at that.

I mean true.

That said, I'd say the bare minimum is expanding the offensive library though. SGE's ability to heal is fine. It's not lacking in healing or mitigation. It's lacking in offense both in the fact that it needs gameplay like all the others and also that it fails to offer enough damage value in contrast to AST and SCH despite having no utility beyond the mitigation that SCH specifically also has. In terms of balance, it basically boils down to do you want SCH with better damage and expedient or SCH with worse damage and no expedient?

There's that too, though my point was more regarding job identity. Sage has good healing numbers, but as the "green dps," it should never need to resort to actually healing unless literally everything else is on cd.

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Originally Posted by Allegor

There's that too, though my point was more regarding job identity. Sage has good healing numbers, but as the "green dps," it should never need to resort to actually healing unless literally everything else is on cd.

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I do not get why people say kardia is weaker than eos or selene, you can put kardia on even 1 dps and still use the kit to keep a tank healthy ( not saying i kardia dps). Also I assume if a sage was to use spell speed for faster cast for dosis, Wouldnt the sage be healing faster over time than the fairy, also there is soteria too which increase kardia heal potency where as nothing to oncrease embrace. If sch use certain things too the fairy will stop casting embrace tk do other things.

(Not in the other thread and this seems like a genuinely decent idea, Ty)

I don't actually dislike this, and have considered something similar before. Eukrasia is amazing for hotbar economy and efficiency, and I love the modifier effect. It's good futureproofing for the Job since they can add more future skills without needing to add more buttons, per se. I thought it would be neat to have an "Aero 3" "Eukrasian Dyskrasia", but knowing just a SMIDGE of Greek, the name there is an oxymoron.

The idea of having a Eukrasia and Diskrasia as "good/heal toggle" and "bad/attack toggle" is a good solution. The game seems to have no trouble substituting hotbar abilities for others, so there are no problems there.

One note is you don't need an MP cost with Eukrasia/Diskrasia - the MP cost is on the skill. Contrast Diagnosis vs Eukrasia Diagnosis (400 MP vs 900 MP), so they can just have the MP connected to the skill as today.

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If I'm reading this right, the overall changes are:

Eu Dosis is a Cure2-ish heal + increases healing on the target (it should probably be one OR the other of these, though, not both...)
Dis Prognosis would basically be current Dyskrasia, albeit requiring two button presses.
Dis Diagnosis is a weaker Dosis that boosts SGE damage (might have this as a self-buff like Storm's Eye rather than struggling with the boss debuff code even more - that whole "removing DoTs because..." thing), also grants 1 Addersting, and give the Kardia target Taruochole.

Diagnosis and Eu Diagnosis now trigger Kardia (might also do this with Prognosis and just have it as more or less "all SGE GCDs trigger Kardia")

And Toxicon is being slapped with a middling CD to prevent flexibility of use while also being doubled in damage to make it damage neutral but not allowing it to become a burst tool as such.

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I see some problems - namely this would make Dis Diagnosis too powerful since you could keep near 100% uptime of damage reduction on some party members (can rotate Kardia every 5 sec), so that might be seen as too overpowered, and you can also Krasis on demand now vs every 60 sec. Those two things are on CDs since the Devs seem to think they're powerful, so you'd either have them be too powerful, have to reduce their potency, or put the new spells on CDs which would feelbad (right now Eu+ skills have no CD which allows the playstyle to feel very smooth)

So I don't agree with ALL of this, but I think this is a neat idea that could be built on.

For example, Eu Dosis could be a Cure 2 more direct heal (SGE has some real problems when parties are mucking mechanics as it doesn't have a lot of semi-spamable raw throughput, and such a spell would burn MP pretty quickly anyway, so it wouldn't be too OP, give it something like Cure 2 with a 1200 MP cost and it would still have clutch uses or make it 1000 Potency of healing and cost 1500 MP, whatever; point is "big heal but MP inefficient to be used for emergencies"), leave Taurochole as it is, Dyskrasian Prognosis as current Diskrasia works, have Eu Diagnosis be a Storm's Eye-like self-buff attack, and have EITHER these abilities generating Toxicon stacks OR have Toxicon be damage neutral. It only needs to be damage neutral if it's only generated by shield breaking since you're refunding the GCD not spent on damage. If it's generated by other things - for example, Eu Diagnosis being a Storm's Eye self-buff that generates an Addersting means you're guaranteed 1 Toxicon every 30 seconds of optimal play, yes? So that already fixes the problem of giving you more of them. Maybe bump its damage a bit (10% or so) to make it worth using for more than JUST as a movement tool.

How do those suggestions sound? On paper, this translates to:

General rotation of Dis Diagnosis to generate 1 Toxicon per 30 sec and to give the SGE an increased damage buff to upkeep, Dis Dosis to set up your (now damage buffed) DoT, Toxicon to break up the rotation a bit more (used as a movement tool slight damage gain once every 30 sec), a Phlegma every 40 sec worked in, with 2 stocked for the burst window, and Dosis filler.

Healing would be much as it is today, with the addition of GCD heals triggering Kardia and Eu Dosis being a costly Cure 2 emergency bulk heal if you need it.

AOE damage would be Dis Diagnosis to generate 1 Toxicon per 30 sec and give SGE an increased damage buff to upkeep, Toxicon to break up the rotation a bit more (used as a movement tool slight damage gain once every 30 sec), a Phlegma every 40 sec worked in, with 2 stocked for the burst window, and Dis Prognosis filler.

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Honestly, that seems kinda slick to me.

The only complaint is some people would fine pressing Diskrasia then Prognosis to be a bit more of a hassle than...just Diskrasia now; but I think the end result would be worth it and make things a bit more interesting to people without being overwhelming. You could only single weave there, making Plegma/Toxicon your only double weave windows without clipping...but it's not like SGE really NEEDS to doubleweave a lot anyway. Not to mention it would just make a logical parity between Eukrasia, Diskrasia, and Nominal forms of abilities.

And, as I said before, be great for futureproofing the class/adding more buttons over time, such as Eukrasia Plegma for a burst heal in the future, etc.

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I also still think SGE should have a CD to make Kardia AOE, and maybe a second single target Kardia on a CD that could be used for dual tank busters/etc, but...I've been saying that since 6.0.

I don't really have the details mapped out for this idea. It was really just a proof of concept outlining a very basic way to better capture the thematic implications of Eukrasia and Dyskrasia that are more respectful to the meaning behind the nomenclature. There are countless ways you could take that concept and adjust it to feel more smooth.

It's not really my favorite idea in practice as far as gameplay is concerned, but it's thematically something that would feel a lot more satisfying.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

I don't really have the details mapped out for this idea. It was really just a proof of concept outlining a very basic way to better capture the thematic implications of Eukrasia and Dyskrasia that are more respectful to the meaning behind the nomenclature. There are countless ways you could take that concept and adjust it to feel more smooth.

It's not really my favorite idea in practice as far as gameplay is concerned, but it's thematically something that would feel a lot more satisfying.

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Fair enough.

For what it's worth, I think it's a good idea. Maybe with a bit of tweaking, but thematically it works, and something like what I outlined based off of it seems like it would be more engaging than now and still function smoothly. It might even make SGE slightly more approachable for newer players - one of the most miserable stages in leveling SGE to me was Katana Ravel and having an occasional use Cure 2 would have helped a lot there (before you get Panham)