A potential connection between the fate of the First and the Source?

This post will refer to the end of Shadowbringers 5.0, and it's something I've been thinking about lately and would love to hear your thoughts on the matter

So at the end of Shadowbringers, when Emet-Selch is dead and the First is saved from the light, we see a scene in which Zenos kills Varis, which stops the production of Black Rose. This poses the question however: Was the action of Zenos directly tied to our actions on the First? I ask this because if Zenos were going to kill Varis regardless, then there would never have been Black Rose, and there never would have been a reason for Graha to go back to the past to begin with. On the other hand, us going to the first implies that Black Rose did indeed spread in Graha's timeline, but how? Did Zenos not kill Varis then, and if so why not? Or is there some sort of higher power "fate" type of thing which made it so that our action in killing Emet-Selch lead Zenos to killing Varis - fulfilling his part on the Source and destroying both sources of the calamity.
What adds credibility to this latter possibility is the fact that Zenos killed Varis immediately after we killed Emet-Selch.

Time travel is always confusing and leads to potential plot holes/confusing stories, but I would like to hear your thoughts on this matter nonetheless.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cassar

This post will refer to the end of Shadowbringers 5.0, and it's something I've been thinking about lately and would love to hear your thoughts on the matter

So at the end of Shadowbringers, when Emet-Selch is dead and the First is saved from the light, we see a scene in which Zenos kills Varis, which stops the production of Black Rose. This poses the question however: Was the action of Zenos directly tied to our actions on the First? I ask this because if Zenos were going to kill Varis regardless, then there would never have been Black Rose, and there never would have been a reason for Graha to go back to the past to begin with. On the other hand, us going to the first implies that Black Rose did indeed spread in Graha's timeline, but how? Did Zenos not kill Varis then, and if so why not? Or is there some sort of higher power "fate" type of thing which made it so that our action in killing Emet-Selch lead Zenos to killing Varis - fulfilling his part on the Source and destroying both sources of the calamity.
What adds credibility to this latter possibility is the fact that Zenos killed Varis immediately after we killed Emet-Selch.

Time travel is always confusing and leads to potential plot holes/confusing stories, but I would like to hear your thoughts on this matter nonetheless.

---

That is explained a bit in Urianger's summary in Il Mheg. With the WoL acting as both a martial boon and a focal point of morale, the armies of Garlemald began to suffer a compounding number of losses. Varis, at that point released Black Rose which, boosted by a rejoining decimated much of the three continents. Zenos simply had little reason to go immediately to Garlemald while WoL was present and available, he only headed towards Garlemald after discovering that they have gone where he cannot follow for a time.

Also, Zenos never got his body back in the original '8th Calamity' timeline - the WoL didn't just defeat Elidibus in Zenos' body, they physically killed the body so Zenos's soul (who was getting around still in the body of a fallen Ala Mhigan Resistance fighter) never was able to reclaim it like he did in the 'changed' timeline. And presumedly also perished when Black Rose was unleashed.

This is why Black Rose was used, because 'Zenos' (or rather Elidibus) had visibly fallen at Gymlht, the Garlean troops became demoralized and withdrew and so, little by little the fired up Alliance forces pursued them into Garlemald itself, which is when Varis panicked and everything went to hell.

This is also incidentally what the ShB opening movie is actually portraying at the beginning - the WoL's fight with Elidibus in Zenos's body at Gymlht, but how it originally played out in the 8th Calamity timeline (and ended with Elidibus's defeat), not how it actually occurred for the player at the end of patch 4.55.

Enkidoh's got it, Zenos' body was dead in the original timeline anyway, even if his soul was still around. Also keep in mind that Zenos' return had absolutely nothing to do with Black Rose, aside from him turning up at roughly the same time as Gaius and Estinien on their disposal mission. He mostly didn't actually care about it, we can only assume how he would've responded to it if it was still in play when he took the throne.

I'm torn on if he'd order it destroyed because it'd be a dishonorable death compared to Glorious Combat, or if he'd crack it out to kill Ishgard or something just to make people mad enough at him to fight him harder.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Enkidoh

Also, Zenos never got his body back in the original '8th Calamity' timeline - the WoL didn't just defeat Elidibus in Zenos' body, they physically killed the body so Zenos's soul (who was getting around still in the body of a fallen Ala Mhigan Resistance fighter) never was able to reclaim it like he did in the 'changed' timeline. And presumedly also perished when Black Rose was unleashed.

---

Is there a source for that? I've certainly speculated that the WoL might kill Elidibus-as-Zenos in the other timeline, but I don't recall it being stated.

In any case, the simplest answer is that in the other timeline, even if everything else played out the same, the Scions are still present on the battlefield to push the Garleans harder and drive Varis to desperation sooner. Zenos never had a chance to kill him before everything went to hell.