Summoner utility

I'll be honest I do not like the rework for summoner, but we got it and we can only hope for tweaks and improvements, right?

One of those improvements would be to take out Phoenix from the summoning rotation, I said take out, not remove it. So we'd still be able to summon Phoenix, but when We Want it. Right now the HoT, everlasting flight, and single player buff, Rekindle, just gets wasted. This is simply because the rotation dictates it, not because it's required for the fight. I'm not sure if It should also change our dps spells. I would also like to add a new spell to ressurect a single party member. Currently ressing someone is a dps loss for summoner. This would alleviate it.

I would also like RUIN II insta cast back. This spell would then can get upgraded to ruin IV as we execute our rotation.. This would help when we have Ifrit up and we don't want to spend our melee spells, Crimson Cyclone and Crimson Strike.

I'm still hoping we get some more summons like FF XI.

Kind opinion please.

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Originally Posted by Isilien

I'll be honest I do not like the rework for summoner, but we got it and we can only hope for tweaks and improvements, right?

One of those improvements would be to take out Phoenix from the summoning rotation, I said take out, not remove it. So we'd still be able to summon Phoenix, but when We Want it. Right now the HoT, everlasting flight, and single player buff, Rekindle, just gets wasted. This is simply because the rotation dictates it, not because it's required for the fight. I'm not sure if It should also change our dps spells. I would also like to add a new spell to ressurect a single party member. Currently ressing someone is a dps loss for summoner. This would alleviate it.

I would also like RUIN II insta cast back. This spell would then can get upgraded to ruin IV as we execute our rotation.. This would help when we have Ifrit up and we don't want to spend our melee spells, Crimson Cyclone and Crimson Strike.

I'm still hoping we get some more summons like FF XI.

Kind opinion please.

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I just think a lot of gameplay elements just need to be totally reworked, and some spells added, because the summoner feels like a ''Demi Job''
it looks like the design is only 50% done, this has a lot of repercussions on the gameplay, but also on some elements that feel clunky,
- Like the overflow of mobility.

-The carbuncles which is totally useless, with a shield which is unavailable 60% of the rotation.

-Phoenix Everlasting flight and Renkindle which feel ineffective in a few situations ''overheal'', stuck 15s in a 120s rotation
(and the effects of regen on dps overall like arcane crest ''Reaper'' are not that strong as a good mitigation).

-The potency of the 3 elementary summons is not proportional to their mobility,
'Titan 2620 Pot in 12.5s -> 209.6 DPS.
'Ifrit 2580 Pot in 13.5s -> 191.1 DPS.
'Gar' 2160 Pot in 12s -> 183.3 DPS.
theoretically the order of potency according to the total duration of the summon and mobility should be.
Ifrit->Garuda->Titan '' I don't think they will, but i think they need to totally rework how elemental summons work for 7.0.

-They also need to remove Physick or replace it with a really useful spell.
-The etherflow system should also be completely reworked, it is clearly poorly implemented on the 6.0 summoner.
'Ruin IV has become a totally forgotten spell.

The visuals are good, but there is still a lot of work to do on the summoner to make him really interesting, today people play him because he requires no thinking and has a mobility almost similar to Phys ranged,
I don't think that this is really what a job in the category of '' Caster '' should look like, they should have kept the old system of egi assault to generate Ruin IV, and move only when it necessary.

Oh What I would also like is when Phoenix is out to buff physick to Cure II potency perhaps, but otherwise heal somewhat similar to Redmage vercure.

and yeah Carbuncle really is just a cure emotional support that we just need to see 100%. The Summons aren't tied to the petbar , so it doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by Isilien

Oh What I would also like is when Phoenix is out to buff physick to Cure II potency perhaps, but otherwise heal somewhat similar to Redmage vercure.

and yeah Carbuncle really is just a cure emotional support that we just need to see 100%. The Summons aren't tied to the petbar , so it doesn't make sense.

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I don't think it's a good idea for the summoner to convert physick to INT, it's much better that this spell be removed because it's never been effective and people don't really want to have a targetable healing spell in DPS roles, red mages use vercure in downtime, to rez or have an instant cast, but never in a fight situation,
also the summoner does not really master healing magic, if he has access to regeneration it is because he can manifest demi-phoenix ether,
Physick is an arcanist/scholar relic that should have disappeared since the scholar and summoner were trying to get away from each other.

I think it would be more convincing to replace physick and renkindle with a new, more efficient spell that regenerates with each phoenix without use constraint,
but the astral flow of phoenix should be an equivalent to deathflare, after it difficult to know what they are planning with summoner 7.0,
I hope for some big changes but considering the changes on machinist 6.0, I don't have much hope for summoner 7.0.

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Originally Posted by remiff

I don't think it's a good idea for the summoner to convert physick to INT, it's much better that this spell be removed because it's never been effective and people don't really want to have a targetable healing spell in DPS roles, red mages use vercure in downtime, to rez or have an instant cast, but never in a fight situation,
also the summoner does not really master healing magic, if he has access to regeneration it is because he can manifest demi-phoenix ether,
Physick is an arcanist/scholar relic that should have disappeared since the scholar and summoner were trying to get away from each other.

I think it would be more convincing to replace physick and renkindle with a new, more efficient spell that regenerates with each phoenix without use constraint,
but the astral flow of phoenix should be an equivalent to deathflare, after it difficult to know what they are planning with summoner 7.0,
I hope for some big changes but considering the changes on machinist 6.0, I don't have much hope for summoner 7.0.

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INT based Physick might have some niche uses. Ideally like you said it shouldn't be used in a fight situation, except when the need arises... For example, dungeon run, healer dead and still getting the rez after you swiftcast it... tank dying without cooldowns available. Repeated Physicks there would buy the tank a little bit of time. Also, most importantly, there's a new Deep Dungeon coming and a Physick scaling with INT can be a boon there when shit hits the fan.

I actually thought that would be an interesting idea if (beyone correctly scaling) Physick would morph into Everlasting Flight for 45s after you enter Firebird Trance, so we could have some agency and not completely waste the heal.

Other than that, some flavorful utlity if you die with Demi-Phoenix out, it grants you a rez, with a 6min debuff that would prevent you from gettin the effect again.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

INT based Physick might have some niche uses. Ideally like you said it shouldn't be used in a fight situation, except when the need arises... For example, dungeon run, healer dead and still getting the rez after you swiftcast it... tank dying without cooldowns available. Repeated Physicks there would buy the tank a little bit of time. Also, most importantly, there's a new Deep Dungeon coming and a Physick scaling with INT can be a boon there when shit hits the fan.

I actually thought that would be an interesting idea if (beyone correctly scaling) Physick would morph into Everlasting Flight for 45s after you enter Firebird Trance, so we could have some agency and not completely waste the heal.

Other than that, some flavorful utlity if you die with Demi-Phoenix out, it grants you a rez, with a 6min debuff that would prevent you from gettin the effect again.

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They should separate Demi-phoenix and bahamut to leave a real choice between the two, because I'm not sure that phoenix reskinning bahamut is a good idea.

So they could remove the base resurrection, because they want to do it for 7.0 anyway unfortunately, and put one on phoenix 1 stack of instant rez per phéonix, and make him optimal for dangerous phases
like ''everlasting flight give 5% hp shield team 5% more healing 15s +/ 1stack of instant rez '' no time limit for the use''/ every DPS spell are instant cast/ Renkindle give a team regen when the hp drop lower than 70% .

and Bahamut for the big burst,
10% personal damage for 15s.
automaticaly using Megaflare when appears 1300 Potency' 1050 with the actual pet tax ''
- 1.5s cast/2.5s recast per mono/aoe spell ajust potency
Astral flow become Ahk morn but 650 potency.

-Carbuncles should no longer be replaced by summons,
Add 4 ogcd spells similar to old '' egi-assault'' '' but used by carbuncles and ranged spells mono/less dmg in aoe (30s per stack)''
gives 1 etherflow per stack and 1 ruin 4 every 2 ogcd max 2 stack '' no duration limit for R4 ''.
-Delete Energy drain/siphon and start instances with 2 stack of etherflow.
-Adjust potency for painflare/ and rename fester/adjust potency .

After these are just ideas, of what they could do, but I think they will not make a convincing change, for the 7.0 unfortunately.

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Originally Posted by Isilien

I'll be honest I do not like the rework for summoner, but we got it and we can only hope for tweaks and improvements, right?

One of those improvements would be to take out Phoenix from the summoning rotation, I said take out, not remove it. So we'd still be able to summon Phoenix, but when We Want it. Right now the HoT, everlasting flight, and single player buff, Rekindle, just gets wasted. This is simply because the rotation dictates it, not because it's required for the fight. I'm not sure if It should also change our dps spells. I would also like to add a new spell to ressurect a single party member. Currently ressing someone is a dps loss for summoner. This would alleviate it.

I would also like RUIN II insta cast back. This spell would then can get upgraded to ruin IV as we execute our rotation.. This would help when we have Ifrit up and we don't want to spend our melee spells, Crimson Cyclone and Crimson Strike.

I'm still hoping we get some more summons like FF XI.

Kind opinion please.

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While I understand that Phoenix' heal can be wasted if you don't find a situation to use it within the summoning period, I also feel that Summoner's shouldn't be relied on to heal. It's there as an emergency/relief heal. You throw it on yourself/healer/tank as a relief heal so that it lessens the amount of incoming damage for that period. It's not meant as an "all the time" emergency heal.

I also don't feel that we should be rezzing people. That's the healer's job. After that, it's the Red Mage's job. If a Summoner is having to stop their rotation to rez someone, something has gone horribly wrong. It's a last ditch effort ability to try to salvage your run. And honestly, that's all it should be. And at that point, you're not all that worried about your dps. You're worried about saving the run by rezing a healer and hoping they can get the other healer up before the entire party wipes.

As for your ruin II/IV. I simply save my Ruin IV for my Ifrit attunement phase. If I need to move and can't get into melee range then I have it available. Is it dps optimal? No. Will it allow me to cast something in case I get stuck in Ifrit attunement and have to move? Yes.

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Here's what I would personally like to see when it comes to Summoner utility.

I think they should take a page from GW2's book with their Elementalist and give our attunements additional effects when summoning the Primals.

Here are a few examples:

Summoning Ifrit will cause him to do his standard 700 potency attack, and will also apply a DoT to every target it hits with that attack. Numbers can be tuned and adjusted as necessary.

Alternatively, Ifrit could apply a buff to you for 15 seconds that allows you to deal an additional X% of fire damage with each attack for the duration of the buff. (15 seconds) It would be counted as an additional spell cast, rather than just buffing your spells. (Using Ruby Rite will hit for 10K and then "Ifrit's Might" will then hit for 500 damage. (Assuming the number we chose is 5% of your attack) Both attacks can crit.

Summoning Titan will simply give the Summoner a 20% damage reduction buff for 15 seconds. Doesn't have to be anything fancy outside of that. Titan is a tank, so he applies a damage reduction buff to us.

Summoning Garuda will increase our movement speed to the speed of Peloton for 15 seconds. Again, doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

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Conversely, if they decide to add additional Primals to the phase after Phoenix, it could look like this.

Ramuh - Causes your attacks to strike a second nearby target for 20% of the original attack for 15 seconds. Will work on AoE making Ramuh an AoE beast.

Shiva - Reduces the attack speed of any mobs hit by her summoning spell by 20% for 15 seconds, acting like an Arms Length.

Leviathan - Increases all healing received by 20% for 15 seconds. (Water is generally depicted as a healing element)

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You'll notice that all of these are 15 second buffs. Which means that in a lot of cases, you'll be able to overlap them with other attunements. I would say that they would work with other attunement spells, but NOT Primal summoning spells. Since those would be "pet spells" and not "caster spells". (It would be too OP to have Ramuh's AoE buff work on a 700 potency summon spell.)

This will add a bit more complexity to the job since now you'll have to know which summon to use during which situations. Knowing when to use your defensive Primals vs your offensive Primals will be the key to a good vs less than good Summoner. Knowing the fights and knowing what your team can and can't handle will go a long way to making you a better Summoner for those that want it. Otherwise it wouldn't really affect the people who don't care.

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Just my two cents on the direction I would love to see Summoner go. Heck, you could even reduce all these numbers and make them party wide buffs, much like Bard songs.

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A couple additional side notes:

Firstly, I think that our L86 spells (Crimson Cyclone/Strike, Mountain Buster and Slipstream) should be given to Summoners at a super low level. I'm honestly thinking L50 after we've gotten all 3 of our Primal summons. Having those three spells really fleshes out the rotation and makes summoner feel good. Summoner pre-86 kind of sucks to play. Allowing us to have these additional abilities at L50 will really open up the job a lot earlier on.

Likewise, I would give all the previously mentioned utility abilities to Summoners at L86. That way you're upgrading all of your Primals again when the Endwalker upgrades happen.


Secondly, and I know this will be an unpopular opinion; Carbuncle should NOT be given attacks. The pet A.I. in this game is beyond trash and before the re-work would cause a lot of issues for Summoners. Remember the days when you'd push your pet's spell button and the pet just wouldn't use the spell? I don't want to go through that again. It's bad enough that our shield is tied to the Carbuncle. Carby should stay as an aesthetic pet/minion as a memento of what the job used to be, and that's it. Unless they're going to put some serious work into fixing their pet A.I., then we shouldn't have pet's thinking for themselves.

And lastly; They could easily fix Physick. All they need to do is give Summoners a trait at L35 that upgrades Physick to Physick II which will allow it to scale off of Intellect rather than Mind. Or, give us a trait that increases Physick's potency to 8,000. Currently a Summoner's Physick would have be have a potency of 8,000 to match a Scholar's 450 Physick.

If they don't want us spamming it in dungeons/raids, they could easily just double or triple the MP cost on it. That way it would be an emergency heal, rather than a crutch.

Summoner would be better if they just gave your dots back. Use summons on CD while managing your dots.

But they are probably creating a class that specializes in DoT damage. And pruned everything from everyone else to make it happen.

Then again DoT damage goes against their burst damage playstyle they just love.

And the difference between your summon skills and the Necromancer skills (Fester/Energy Drain) is so staggering.

The design is really flawed where you have your summons but the old Aetherflow is still there and is just so out of place.

I'd think people would adore Summoner if you had BOTH the current Summon system as well as the old DoT management system.

And make their damage climb up there with the melees.

To get optimal damage you have to auto the boss anyway during your instant cast phases which is anytime you are not doing Ifrit unless of course you decide that casting discount Fire 4 isn't worth the 2 GCDs.

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Originally Posted by remiff

They should separate Demi-phoenix and bahamut to leave a real choice between the two, because I'm not sure that phoenix reskinning bahamut is a good idea.

So they could remove the base resurrection, because they want to do it for 7.0 anyway unfortunately, and put one on phoenix 1 stack of instant rez per phéonix, and make him optimal for dangerous phases
like ''everlasting flight give 5% hp shield team 5% more healing 15s +/ 1stack of instant rez '' no time limit for the use''/ every DPS spell are instant cast/ Renkindle give a team regen when the hp drop lower than 70% .

and Bahamut for the big burst,
10% personal damage for 15s.
automaticaly using Megaflare when appears 1300 Potency' 1050 with the actual pet tax ''
- 1.5s cast/2.5s recast per mono/aoe spell ajust potency
Astral flow become Ahk morn but 650 potency.

-Carbuncles should no longer be replaced by summons,
Add 4 ogcd spells similar to old '' egi-assault'' '' but used by carbuncles and ranged spells mono/less dmg in aoe (30s per stack)''
gives 1 etherflow per stack and 1 ruin 4 every 2 ogcd max 2 stack '' no duration limit for R4 ''.
-Delete Energy drain/siphon and start instances with 2 stack of etherflow.
-Adjust potency for painflare/ and rename fester/adjust potency .

After these are just ideas, of what they could do, but I think they will not make a convincing change, for the 7.0 unfortunately.

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-Carbuncles should no longer be replaced by summons,

I presume that it is like that up to this day because their combat code only allows 1 combat actor other than your character. Maybe if they manage to improve this we might see better days for the baseline pet. And maybe even the fairy could co-exist with the Seraph, suddenly making Dissipation much better.

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Originally Posted by Raikai

-Carbuncles should no longer be replaced by summons,

I presume that it is like that up to this day because their combat code only allows 1 combat actor other than your character. Maybe if they manage to improve this we might see better days for the baseline pet. And maybe even the fairy could co-exist with the Seraph, suddenly making Dissipation much better.

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Carbuncle does nothing than stand around and eat crayons. But the state that it's in is almost like having it as a mascot to some psuedo magical girl aesthetic and the summoner aesthetic is almost like they're torn between keeping the book system because concepts, or going with something else to utilize its revamped gem system. But before dropping ideas on what new primary weapons, Squenix should finish the new iteration of SMN. Things like, introducing three new primal summons as part of the regular rotation and making them accessible before hitting max level.