Originally, this thread was supposed to be a simple and short question. However, thinking about it. I think it's better to discuss it with others so they may point out something I may have ignored or forgotten about.
It all started when I did the seat of sacrifice a while ago, and while it's not my first time or anywhere near that. I didn't know why I hadn't asked myself this question: From where did the summoner WoL add get Bahamut from?
There have been two and only two instances in the entire history where the primal Bahamut was around. That being during the Allagan era and during the calamity, and with no dragons of similar shape on the shards. It's sort of safe (But not fully) to assume the summoner is from either of those two eras because otherwise, it would be impossible to get Bahamut as a summon then.
Taking present time into account, the only summoners we have around are just a group of newbies who would only summon Ifrit or similar primals of the same level and not something as powerful as Bahamut, in addition to them being military soldiers who don't go around labeling themselves or being known as WoLs or heroes to begin with, which leaves us with Allagan era as the only option, or is it?
I wasn't satisfied with this possible answer, as I have already been wondering about where the WoLs from the seat of sacrifice came from.
A): Only other shards?
B): The source and the shards?
C): Source and shards across time?
D): The whole multiverse including other Final fantasy universes too
Silly as he's. Hildibrand still adheres to the laws of the established lore and universe, and the fact he has been summoned (Despite not actually being Hydaelyn's chosen in any sense and degree) gives us not one but two facts to work upon. That being answer A (the one above) is invalid, and the second fact being is to count as a WoL you don't have to be Hydaelyn's chosen. In fact, anyone who actually believes themselves to be a hero or even a WoL regardless of credence may count when summoning via the spell.
While the second fact may not be as useful as it may sound, we can now based on the first fact set a range of the WoLs being summoned from the source and shards at a minimum and potential multiverse stuff at maximum (Aka B, C, and D)
At this point, it feels like I have reached a roadblock, as there's no way to further confirm anything else. This is why I turned into the rift, where the WoLs came from and where everything is supposedly connected there.
Crystal tower of the first has confirmed its capability to actually jump between different timelines (8th umbral calamity timeline) AND space (Moving from the source to the first) and G'raha current mental (And physical existence at one point) further confirms this point. Especially when we jumped into Elpis later on in EW only to find ourselves in an unchangeable past and our arrival causing a change of events that led to current events and the existence of our timeline.
But wait, how's this even possible? Why wasn't it another timeline? Isn't the crystal tower capable of such? I know at this point I have reached the infamous controversial discussion about time travel.
So what're your thoughts? I would like to hear what I may have potentially missed as I have a feeling I did miss something crucial.
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07-05-2022, 07:42 AMKranel_SanThe rift, the crystal tower, and the seat of sacrifice (Spoilers up to 6.0)
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07-05-2022, 08:33 AMNecrotica
They way time travel seems to work is everything is predestined and cannot be changed.
Except for when it can.
Honestly it is a hot mess and there is no good way of explaining why some things work and others don't without falling back on 'that is the way the writers wanted it'. -
07-05-2022, 09:32 AMNezerius
Pretty sure the red Bahamut in the fight is just a throwback to the red dragon from the opening movie of FF1, on the PS1. In which case, there's probably not some deep lore reason for why he gets summoned, just fan service.
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07-05-2022, 10:24 AMLyth
According to what we've learned from Livingway and Urianger, summoning is a derivative form of creation magic. So it doesn't really matter if the player character has ever met the 'real' Bahamut (although you technically have, if you've completed the Coil storyline). What matters is if they can formulate a mental image of what Bahamut 'ought' to be like. It's also worth noting that when we try to bring Eden's aether back into balance on the First, the primal forms that we summon of Leviathan, Titan, Ramuh, Garuda, Ifrit, and Shiva that we invoke are all visually very different from what we're used to, and yet they're essentially just variations on a theme. Likewise, Louisoix's Phoenix and Lahabrea's Phoinix are different in appearance, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were two manifestations of the same fundamental concept.
The 'summoning' that Elidibus performs isn't really the same thing, in that he's not using aether to give form to a creation. He's drawing souls across from other shards to give him aether. It's a variant form of the spell that G'raha uses to summon seven other players to help you in your fight against Emet, except it's deliberately incomplete so that he can draw on their energy, as Elidibus explains to you in the Ocular. If anything, I suspect that it has closer ties to Void Magic, which is essentially just soul transference from the Thirteenth. -
07-05-2022, 10:37 AMKranel_SanWhich is kind of the point. Bahamut has a unique appearance so it's kind of hard to think someone, either a group of people or a singular summoner, managed to summon an entity similar in shape and abilities to that of Bahamut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lyth
Even we who have seen the primals and fought them firsthand weren't good enough in recreating a perfect reimagination. I would say the chances of someone imagining Bahamut to such a precise degree is pretty much low.
Sure someone on the shards may happen to summon a primal based on a dragon, but to have the shape and abilities right is very impressive to say the least, especially when we already fought multiple dragons, each with very different shape and abilities. -
07-05-2022, 10:52 AMKageTokageThere really is no logical way G'raha's bad timeline could've ever existed given the fact we're responsible for perpetuating an extremely far-reaching causal loop that would've been broken by our death.Quote:
Originally Posted by Necrotica
I strongly get the impression they didn't actually have that element of the story planned until after 5.0. -
07-05-2022, 11:25 AMKranel_SanThe problem is, Alexander's storyline has already established the laws of time travel.Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
Before 6.0, my headcanon to the difference between Alexander's time travel and G'raha's time travel was the fact Alexander had pure dominance over time while in G'raha's case he mixed Alexander's time travel powers with Omega's rift hopping, causing him instead of traveling back to an actual past from his timeline to simply end up in an alternative timeline without realizing so. Of course, 6.0 did this headcanon a favor by even throwing everything into a pure mess. As if 5.0 didn't cause enough mess.... -
07-05-2022, 12:01 PMNecrotica
Writers: It's aether. I ain't gotta explain shit.
It is possible that everything that happens on the Source is predetermined and cannot be changed by time travel. But what happens on the Shards is not. Therefore actions taken on the Shards that effect the Source bypass 'destiny'. -
07-05-2022, 01:28 PMCleretic
The Spectral Heroes in the Heroes' Gauntlet (I wouldn't call them 'Warriors of Light' just to avoid confusion, there's a few figures with that name running around at that point) come from nebulous elsewheres, but nothing suggests that those 'elsewheres' would be anywhere further afield than the shards. Thanks to Hildibrand we can confirm one of those elsewheres was the Source, but at the same time I would also put forward the Spectral Dragoons; Dragoons also only exist on the Source. And if Elidibus' ability lets him pull across shards, there's no reason he'd limit himself to one shard.
Beyond that, though, I think it's a mistake to assume that the Spectral Heroes are anything more than just a copied image of a hero. Hildibrand wasn't, sure, but we already know that Hildibrand is rarely a strict adherent to anything we'd call 'rules'. In fact, even with this example he seems unusual; he persisted on the First after all of the events surrounding Elidibus finished and all the other Spectral Heroes dissappeared, suggesting that the rest of them were rather more ephemeral than him. They also seemed to have a lot less autonomy and willfulness, so it seems to me they were just images, and Hildibrand was, as always, a weird exception.
With the fact the Spectral Summoners only summon a red Bahamut, I think it's also folly to assume that they're actually using the same school of magic that we are. Remember that when appearing in the Gauntlet they use the term 'Ink Mage', which is... well, not a Summoner. (Someone told me that Ink Mages appear in some Heavensturn quests, but that's a difficult thing to confirm.) It's likely this is just an entirely different combat style that happens to look similar, like how Aymeric isn't a Paladin but nonetheless uses similar skills. Despite actual dragons only being on the Source, there's draconic things elsewhere; there were dragon-like enemies across the First, there's the gwibers, and somehow there's the Five-Headed Dragon in the World of Darkness. Who's to say that the Fifth didn't coincidentally invent Red Bahamut?
I don't know why time travel is being admitted into evidence here, I think it's a red herring. Time travel is an infamous blind spot for the Ascians; most of them didn't know it existed, and Elidibus only learned the Crystal Tower could do that in Endwalker, while stuck in it. With the Spectral Heroes making their appearance before Elidibus even got to the point of controlling the tower, time travel isn't even remotely possible.
EDIT: And while completely unrelated to the core subject of the thread, FFXIV's time travel is actually really simple. You just have to remember two things:
A: It's possible to either make a stable time loop or a new timeline; if you do the latter, the original timeline is orphaned and can't be returned to (at least, with the technology we have).
And B: that the only figure who understood the actual rules of time travel sealed themselves in a time bubble. Everyone else is just crossing their fingers and hoping for the best. -
07-05-2022, 01:38 PMIscahA distinction that you're missing here is that the Crystal Tower cannot "jump between timelines", it can only (or at least is only shown to) move back and forth along a single timeline. G'raha did not travel to a different timeline but to a point in the past before the calamity happened. His actions there create a splitting point in time where one path still leads to the original timeline and a new one leads to a changed future.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kranel_San
My theory of the timeline, which I worked out to reconcile Alexander vs Shadowbringers and it seems to have held in Endwalker, is that the universe "prefers" stable time loops and most things a time traveller does will be integrated into the single flow of time, but if they change something that makes it impossible for the future to play out as they know it, the timeline will split to accomodate this.
G'raha split the timeline by preventing a specific event he knew in detail, which can no longer occur. We had no idea how the Final Days played out, so we can't do anything to contradict it.
Our "other self" from the bad timeline isn't needed to perpetuate the Elpis loop.Quote:
Originally Posted by KageTokage
Even though the bad timeline is the original and ours is an alteration, the end result is that both happen simultaneously and there always has been a version of time where we survive to reach the events of Endwalker.
We travel from there back to a point before the timelines split, arriving in the shared past of both our timeline and the bad timeline. Therefore we set those events in motion for both timelines, not just ours.