Here's my problem with Hermies

What makes me so angry with Hermes is that Emet-Selch completely and utterly destroyed Hermes's question, and thus proved that Meteon's mission was flawed and thus her conclusion is flawed, and yet he still persist that his course was right, when again it was a flawed premise, to begin with. Hermes so loved creation and thus life so much that even in the face of his own mistake he'd rather allow the mistake to jeopardize all CREATION, the very thing HE LOVED SO MUCH.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

What makes me so angry with Hermes is that Emet-Selch completely and utterly destroyed Hermes's question, and thus proved that Meteon's mission was flawed and thus her conclusion is flawed, and yet he still persist that his course was right, when again it was a flawed premise, to begin with.

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Actually, I’d question if it was not Emets response that was flawed. His criticism that Meteions mission only works if there are others who still have a desire to live is correct if you believe the only correct answer is one that affirms life. And while I do think that was Hermes original intent, to find something that would give meaning and purpose to living, the answer that he received is no less valid because it doesn’t do so. As Hermes put it:

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Hermes: It isn’t right, is it? It isn’t right to turn away from the answer… even if the answer… is pain… Even if we aberrations must scream ourselves hoarse to be heard…

Aye. Whatever answers we find, I will not dismiss them out of hand. These words I said to you… and I will hold myself to them.

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I do however think Emets line later saying he’s engaging in sophistry is correct though!

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Hermes so loved creation and thus life so much that even in the face of his own mistake he'd rather allow the mistake to jeopardize all CREATION, the very thing HE LOVED SO MUCH.

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Hermes/Fandaniel I think would say what they’re doing is a mercy to that life, as they’re saving it from all the pain and suffering existence brings. They’d be wrong of course, Fandaniel even admits so, but that would be the argument.

And perhaps that love is exactly what gave rise to his desire for destruction.

As Plato’s Phaedos says

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After repeated disappointments at the hands of the very people who might be supposed to be your nearest and most intimate friends, constant irritation ends by making you dislike everybody and suppose that there is no sincerity to be found anywhere...

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Hermes to me is the anti-Venat, had he just opened his mouth and spoke the words that troubled him sooner, he may have come across Venat and her reasons for loving Etheirys. Hermes was so full of despair at what he believed was the loss of life, that he couldn't see that by sparring those failed creations he would only be dooming them to more suffering than they or any other creature unfit to survive in the environment of etheirys would have. It wasn't callous the testing and subsequent judging of worthiness to live that was wrong when it came to creations in Elpis or Etheirys. He initially wanted an answer to what brought happiness to others in the span of their existence, likely as a remedy to his own lack of happiness on Etheirys. He was surrounded by people who found joy in their lives but for all we know did not ask any of them what brought them this happiness? I can understand that the true value of one's happiness need be measured against what one has suffered through, what I can't accept is that he didn't turn to others to find some measure of strength to "forge ahead" and seek happiness through those around you, had he simply turned to say again Venat he would have likely found the answer or at least where to look for it in his own personal life, an answer that I think would have been found in celebrating the brief time those creations that failed to pass the test for continued survival had, what a spectacle their short existence was. He would have found joy and sorrow and been a more complete person for it. I for one agree that mankind should face some stormy weather every once in awhile so long as they don't give up hope that brighter days a still ahead. Why couldn't he find joy and peace in the creations that did succeed? Enough so that it overrides the despair and sorrow he felt for the ones that didn't. It's normal to have regrets, but it's abnormal to only focus on them when their was light and joy in ones successes.

The issue I found with Hermes' question, and how I interpreted what Emet told him is that he wasn't asking if there was a purpose or reason for living. He was asking why things have to suffer and die. Hermes though, in his grand mental gymnastics performance, still felt that he can find the answer to one by solving another. Hence, Emet pointing out that what Hermes essentially did was program a paradox directly into Meteion. Find the meaning in of life, in the endless cold black sea of outer space? It was the catalyst to bring about their doom. If this gives you a sense of fury towards Hermes, this is exactly what this is supposed to do to the viewer.

Ultimately what Hermes concluded was that if existence is meant to persist, then it will find a way to avert its own demise. He wasn't wrong.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

What makes me so angry with Hermes is that Emet-Selch completely and utterly destroyed Hermes's question, and thus proved that Meteon's mission was flawed and thus her conclusion is flawed, and yet he still persist that his course was right, when again it was a flawed premise, to begin with. Hermes so loved creation and thus life so much that even in the face of his own mistake he'd rather allow the mistake to jeopardize all CREATION, the very thing HE LOVED SO MUCH.

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Hermes was probably depressed. In a society that values conformity to that degree, of course they would've been absolutely garbage-fire god-awful at understanding a mental health issue like that. It doesn't matter that Emet-Selch was factually correct about what he should've done; not only is it too late, but Hermes didn't get to that state through logical reasoning, and you can't logic someone out of a view they didn't logic themselves into.

Which, in tragic irony, is the exact same position Emet-Selch would go on to have been in in Shadowbringers (time travel tenses are fun). Also probably depressed, also ignoring facts because he was emotionally mired into his plan rather than logically reasoned.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

The issue I found with Hermes' question, and how I interpreted what Emet told him is that he wasn't asking if there was a purpose or reason for living. He was asking why things have to suffer and die. Hermes though, in his grand mental gymnastics performance, still felt that he can find the answer to one by solving another. Hence, Emet pointing out that what Hermes essentially did was program a paradox directly into Meteion. Find the meaning in of life, in the endless cold black sea of outer space? It was the catalyst to bring about their doom. If this gives you a sense of fury towards Hermes, this is exactly what this is supposed to do to the viewer.

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I actually think the game itself is saying they are one and the same, that suffering and living are inevitable companions only at most staved off for a brief moment. Hermes isn’t necessarily getting it wrong then, as to live is to suffer as Venat put it.

And thinking from his perspective I guess I wouldn’t know where else to look than offworld. He couldn’t exactly ask the Lykaons or even Meteion.

But that is contingent we buy his position that the Ancients weren’t really giving a satisfying answer of course, which is what I feel is the great tragedy of his character. Meteion even remarks that the answer was always there on Etheirys.

Buttttt that is also a fair reason to be pissed at him so :p

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Ultimately what Hermes concluded was that if existence is meant to persist, then it will find a way to avert its own demise. He wasn't wrong.

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Agreed!

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Originally Posted by Cleretic

Hermes was probably depressed. In a society that values conformity to that degree, of course they would've been absolutely garbage-fire god-awful at understanding a mental health issue like that. It doesn't matter that Emet-Selch was factually correct about what he should've done; not only is it too late, but Hermes didn't get to that state through logical reasoning, and you can't logic someone out of a view they didn't logic themselves into.

Which, in tragic irony, is the exact same position Emet-Selch would go on to have been in in Shadowbringers (time travel tenses are fun). Also probably depressed, also ignoring facts because he was emotionally mired into his plan rather than logically reasoned.

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Yeah but he was missing crucial information thanks to Hermes memory alteration device, memories that would have definitely swayed his chosen course of action, where as Hermes lack of memory probably bought them more time since he wasn't aware he actually put them in this crisis. Ironically had he just erased his memory of the events that led him to feel so depressed with that device he'd have been a functional person, or as functional as one could be on Etheirys.

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Originally Posted by Selvokaz

Ironically had he just erased his memory of the events that led him to feel so depressed with that device he'd have been a functional person, or as functional as one could be on Etheirys.

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I don't think it necessarily works that way – in fact, it could well have the opposite effect.

Consider that the erased events were never truly forgotten, but etched deeper in his soul to echo through lifetimes. Now, imagine if he was doing that on a semi-regular basis as an attempt at self-therapy. Erase the memory, including the memory of setting up the erasing. Every so often, get the idea again to use it "just this once". On the surface, there'd be nothing to recall; underneath, layers of anguish building up that he can't even name, until it utterly breaks him one way or another.

That said, Hermes' problem is that he cares too much about what's happening and thinks nobody else does. Because he thinks it's important to care about the creatures' fate, he isn't going to voluntarily remove that care from himself, even as it hurts him to hold onto it.