The Twelve, The Calendar, and The Dusty Tomes (I'm Sorry.)

I'm reading those pesky Dusty Tomes again, and I think something has gone horribly, horribly wrong on the text organization end. Before I begin, I can see that it's all based on the elemental wheel - so let's dig that gem back out.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_7aOGPodCoBU/TI...ts%20order.jpg
NOSTALGIAAAAAA
Seen here, the elemental "wheel" rotates from ice (polar umbral) clockwise back unto itself.

Pretty much everything in the game is based on this down to crystal drops (6 shards of a defeated mob's main element and 3 from each that neighbors it on the wheel). Therefore, it's no shock that Eorzea's measurements of time would follow this as well.

But... somewhere along the line the whole thing just CRUMBLES as far as what the Dusty Tomes are trying to communicate to me.

Possible outcomes:

• I'll look foolish because I overlooked an obvious solution.
• There is a lot of editing in your future (I'm sorry.)
• This'll all get shipped off to the Dev Gods to sort out and they'll have to choose between hating me forever or realizing that future generations of Eorzeans will have time measurements that make sense and line up with the lore and be so happy that they build a statue of me somewhere (preferably in Limsa Lominsa).

BUT I DIGRESS.

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Originally Posted by Dusty Tomes

Chapter 1 - The Suns
By the unit of a sole Sun we mean that period which lasts for the duration of four cycles of the six elemental hours - those of Ice, Water, Wind, Lightning, Fire, and Earth. And so is the sun twenty hours and four, and so shall it ever be.

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Got it: Hours come in blocks of six. 00:00 until 1:00 is Ice up until 05:00 to 6:00 is Earth, and then we repeat that four times to get a sun (a day).

(Question Block #1)
We see a lot of Astral/Umbral later on - so are two cycles astral and two umbral? Do they alternate? For that matter, do astral and umbral even exist as they once did? Banish used to be the three astral elements and scourge used to be the three umbrals but now they're all just "Neutral."

On top of this, the month progression and element tome seem to indicate that EVERY element has an astral and umbral side - is it 3 and 3, or everything was polarized in both ways all along? Both? @.@

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dusty Tomes

Chapter 2 - The Moons
The life of a single Moon spans four cycles of eight Suns, and is thus the sum of thirty and two. The eight deriveth from the elements six, Ice, Water, Wind, Lightning, Fire, and Earth, and the polarities two, Astral and Umbral.

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So, eight days a week, starting with Iceday on the 1st, 9th, 17th, and 25th and rotating clockwise through the other 7. Gotcha!

(Question Block #2)
I tend to notice things like busting a lot of lightning synths on earthsday and having way more of my spells resisted on Garuda on windsday. Is this what the book is trying to say or am I the victim of confirmation bias?

If there's something to his, back to the Astral Umbral thing - are Fire Lightning and Wind powered up on the 7th day but to a lesser degree than they would be on their respective days earlier in the week? Why would the tomes tell me what element is associated with every 2 minute 55 second period of a sun but leave out this nugget of relevance?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dusty Tomes

Chapter 3 - The Years
The Year is made when the Moon goeth round the two Astral and Umbral poles, fluctuating between the six elements, and that in turn. (????)

In this, the Year can be said to be the length of twelve Moons. The first and second Moons of the Year are the first astral and first Umbral, and together they share affinity with Ice. etc. et. etc.

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We've got the same elemental clockwise rotation from Ice, but now we get an astral and an umbral of each. If Astral is still associated with 3 and umbral still with 3, what's going on here? Consider that a secondary question, though, because here's where it all starts falling apart for me with a simple crack in the ice (pun intended): The character creation process associates The Twelve with these months, and we do start in with ice and go clockwise, and we do see the positive forces with astral and the negative with umbral... except for that first one. Why would the fury be astral and the lover umbral?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dusty Tomes

Chapter 4 - Of Man
The wisdom of the Twelve saw fit to grant man with the cycle of years, and in turn the reverence of man bound them to his gods - the Year of the Navigator, of the Wanderer, of the Builder, of the Destroyer, of the Warden, of the Traders, of the Matron, of the Keeper, of the Fury, of the Lover, of the Scholar, and of the Spinner. The turning of these Years twelve is a sacred thing, and together they comprise one epoch of man, by which the histories of his endeavor are measured.

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Why are the twelve listed in a totally different order than their months were? So far everything has gone in order, starting at polar ice and going clockwise. What's up? Was this just a translation thing - or do the years of an Epoch really stand upon 4 tiers of matching progressions and decide to totally ignore it?

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Originally Posted by Dusty Tomes

Chapter 5 - Of Gods
The constancy and eternity of time derive from the pulse and breath of the Twelve. And by their divine will the brilliance of the Astral Eras which see man flourish and prosper, and the shadows of the Umbral Eras which see man falter and doubt, are visited upon him in equal, and neither the greatest good nor the greatest evil may escape their purview. Since the peace among the Twelve was broken and life was created to wage their wars, six cycles of the Eras have come to pass in keeping with the elemental order. The Sixth Umbral Era belonged to the waters, as heavy rains fell and the seas rose high, submerging and cleansing all in a great deluge. With time the waters receded, ushering in the present Sixth Astral Era, during which man has again rebuilt his halls and tilled his lands. Naught save the ken of the Twelve themselves knoweth when the Seventh Umbral Era shall come and end our days. The sole certainty what resides within man is the selfsame as it has ever been - ours is the power to make of our Era what we might.

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And finally, in the last chapter, the Umbral eras now come before astrals? I'd hate to think that all long it was the FIFTH umbral era that ended, ushering in the SIXTH astral - because that would really throw a crimp in the Seventh Umbral Era storyline, wouldn't it?

Let's assume they really do go the opposite way after 5 tiers of the opposite. The lore says the Spoken started their existence in an umbral era? You'd think that would have prevented us from getting off the ground...

And even though we're "in keeping with elemental order" the sixth is water? This whole thing seems in shambles to me, at this point. Help me out!

If not for me, than for all the lore loving Eorzeans who will have consistent Dusty Tomes and time measurements to appreciate on the page I've already blown WAAAAY to much time on.

Are you leaving out more text in those tomes than what you've quoted? If so, feel free to ignore my questions to you.

Q1) I'm not sure where you're getting that anything is neutral now or that elements have both an Astral and Umbral side. Sometimes things are referred to both in single element terms and in Astral/Umbral terms at the same time, and thus, sometimes the elements' astral/umbral-ness don't line-up with the astral/umbral cycle being referred to, but I just see them as completely separate when referenced like that (such as in chapter 3).

Q2) Where are you getting 2 minutes and 55 seconds?

Ch5) The Umbral eras have always gone before the Astra eras. Are you getting caught up on the fact that both Astral and Umbral are always labeled with the same number? It goes U1, A1, U2, A2, etc. We're currently in the sixth Astral era. Prior to this was the sixth Umbral era, as indicated in the book. It makes sense that following U6 > A6 would come U7. I'm not aware of any cycle to reference that goes Astral Element, Umbral Element, Astral, etc. so there's no reason why the 6th Umbral can't be Water.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

We see a lot of Astral/Umbral later on - so are two cycles astral and two umbral? Do they alternate? For that matter, do astral and umbral even exist as they once did? Banish used to be the three astral elements and scourge used to be the three umbrals but now they're all just "Neutral."

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Well that's interesting. I could've sworn that Banish was listed as only 'Astral' and Scourge as 'Umbral'. Is this thing of each having three elements based on research/testing of some kind?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

Why are the twelve listed in a totally different order than their months were? So far everything has gone in order, starting at polar ice and going clockwise. What's up? Was this just a translation thing - or do the years of an Epoch really stand upon 4 tiers of matching progressions and decide to totally ignore it?

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Look carefully at the list of the Twelve. They're paired off. ;) So I very much doubt any kind of translation error on this part. The Epoch also seems to be about the Twelve, not elements, so I'm kind of failing to see how the elemental list is relevant here. Each year of an Epoch is simply associated with a type of human behavior, from what I can see, which is very appropriate since it applies to humans instead of more abstract things.

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Originally Posted by Anonymoose

And finally, in the last chapter, the Umbral eras now come before astrals? I'd hate to think that all long it was the FIFTH umbral era that ended, ushering in the SIXTH astral - because that would really throw a crimp in the Seventh Umbral Era storyline, wouldn't it?

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I do believe this order was confirmed recently here at the loc forums. The Eras start with the Umbral Era of Wind, continue with the Astral Era of Wind, and then continue on from there in the familiar elemental order. Current Era being the Astral Era of Water, it's the last in the elemental progression when starting from Wind. The order could also have been figured out from various NPC scripts if you made a chart listing all known eras and their elements along with what's unknown.

Two thoughts:

1.
The only place the elemental order is really spelled out is in connection with the years, and the years do not include Umbral/Astral (not in the same way). So while I agree that we go Ice -> Water -> Wind -> Lightning -> Fire -> Earth, it is not clear that Umbral and Astral are tacked onto the end of each week.

So I think a week could go Umbral -> Ice -> Water -> Wind -> Astral -> Lightning -> Fire -> Earth.

2.
Based on assumption that we are heading into the Seventh Umbral Era and that we are in the Sixth Astral Era and that we seem to go U1/A1 -> U2/A2.... I am going to call the language "The first and second Moons of the Year are the first Astral and first Umbral" an error, and suggest that it be revised to say "The first and second Moons of the Year are the first Umbral and first Astral".

That said, I am with Anonymoose here overall. Something is seriously off when it comes to the language of the Eras/Epochs.

While this could all just be passed off as mistakes of Lewphon of Sharlayan, the author of The Five Ages - An Eorzean Chronology, I do hope that Fern and the rest of the LOC team take some time to dig into this and explain/fix it properly.

There's a bit of overlap in your questions so I'm going to answer them both at once.

Astral and Umbral
Yes, at one time, Banish and Scourge were 3 elements each; all Astral/Umbral inspired things were. It was tough to convince people of this without flat out showing them the datamines; but I promise you it's true. It's not a coincidence that the elements that represent "the astral heavens above" and the "umbral depths below" are the top three and bottom three elements on the wheel.

The confusion you speak of is exactly why I'm asking. Here's the old info for abilities, though, just in case you believe me mistaken. The 34% 33% 33% has been replaced by Neutral 100% in recent patches.

Banish
Action Cost: 3

Thaumaturgy Optimal Rank: 1
Requires: Disciplines of War or Magic
Cast Time: 2 sec.
Recast Time: 5 sec.
MP Cost: 11
Range: 12
Effect Range: 5
Fire: 34%
Wind: 33%
Lightning: 33%
Exorcise an enemy's evils with holy light, dealing astral damage and reducing the target's astral magic defense.

Scourge
Action Cost: 3

Thaumaturgy Optimal Rank: 1
Requires: Disciplines of War or Magic
Cast Time: 2 sec.
Recast Time: 5 sec.
MP Cost: 11
Range: 12
Effect Range: 5
Ice: 34%
Earth: 33%
Water: 33%
Curse an enemy with darkness and duress, dealing umbral damage and reducing the target's umbral magic defense.

Now, Chapter III states that "The six elements are manifest in all things great and small, and their polarity deriveth from the Astral heavens above and the Umbral depths below." This line is the source of SO MUCH confusion. I could be stating that ALL THINGS are made up of ALL ELEMENTS, which seems to be the first interpretation people jump to; but read it again.

It doesn't specifically say that all elements are in all things, but that all things are made up of these six elements. Real-world classical alchemy once believed that all things were made of up just four, and that they were BASED in one of those four (or a combination of them).

Look to the in-game world, specifically at fish, and you'll you will see that the six elements really are manifest in all things... it's just that wind manifests in crimson crayfish and lightning manifests in black sole... etc. etc. -- in mobs, earth manifests in moles, lightning in hounds.

More Digressing / Baseless Assumption that you can skip

Someone who wanted to argue my point might astutely point out that when mobs drop 6 of their base element, they drop 3 of its neighbors on the wheel. Perhaps there is elemental influence from all 6 elements, but their base is simply the strongest, and the others are too weak of an influence to even make it onto the drop list.

I'd argue that mobs, like fish, are based in one element, but when that aether escapes the dying mob and crystallizes, there's a natural flux that you don't see in fish because you're using the lightning crystal's plasma to convert it faster and more purely.

But that's just lore assumption and rambling and nothing to do with localization.

After that it's simply a matter of identifying the polarity of their given element, which again goes back to my question: Are we still playing by 34% 33% 33% rules?

2 Minutes 55 Seconds
The in-game clock moves one minute every 2.916 seconds, totaling 175 Earth seconds for every 1 Eorzea hour (2m 55s). The tome states that every hour is represented by an element; which means that the book is telling me what every 3 minute period in the game represents, but potentially leaves out critical information later in the hierarchy.

Umbral Eras First
As far as umbral eras before astral ones, I just thought it was strange. I don't have trouble believing that Umbral eras come first, but the tome mentions everything in the order they exist in; I don't think the ERAS came in the wrong order, I just think if the TOMES are listing everything in the proper order, and it listed Astral before Umbral previously, it should reverse the order it speaks of them in Chapter V.

EDIT: If wind was first, water was sixth, and then Raya-O-Senna says the fifth was ice... I guess we really are going clockwise afterall. We just need to swap the order in the book? OH GODS, and the deities listed in the book start with Wind as well - WHAT IS GOING ON HERE?

The Twelve being Paired Off Already
Yessir; they are. What I'm getting at is, again, that the Tomes have kept a pattern until now, and that pattern breaks at this point. The order always started with Umbral Prime (Ice) and rotated clockwise; then the first astral and first umbral moon are ice, and THOSE rotate clockwise as well. But then the gods are listed what, according to the montly elemental associations, is the wrong order. Check it out; I hope the fact that we're still rotating clockwise lends some ethos to my point:

The Tome's Order:
the Year of the Navigator, of the Wanderer,
of the Builder, of the Destroyer,
of the Warden, of the Traders,
of the Matron, of the Keeper,
of the Fury, of the Lover,
of the Scholar, and of the Spinner.

Wind Wind
Lightning Lightning
Fire Fire
Earth Earth
Ice Ice
Water Water

The same order we've always seen, but now Wind goes first? If you take the order that the book said the MONTHS went in, and then the character creation biographies of the twelve, you arrive at:

First moon - First Astral Moon - Halone, the fury
Second moon - First Umbral Moon - Menphina, the lover
Third moon - Second Astral Moon - Thaliak, the scholar
Fourth moon - Second Umbral Moon - Nymeia, the spinner
Fifth moon - Third Astral Moon - Llymlaen, the navigator
Sixth moon - Third Umbral Moon - Oschon, the wanderer
Seventh moon - Fourth Astral Moon - Byregot, the builder
Eighth moon - Fourth Umbral Moon - Rhalgr, the destroyer
Ninth moon - Fifth Astral Moon - Azeyma, the warden
Tenth moon - Fifth Umbral Moon - Nald'thal, the traders
Eleventh moon - Sixth Astral Moon - Nophica, the matron
Twelfth moon - Sixth Umbral Moon - Althyk, the keeper

Ice Ice Water Water Wind Wind Lightning Lightning Fire Fire Earth Earth; as would have been expected - also, I'd like to point out that all of the astral moons, with the exception of Ice, show the god representing a positive force and the astral moons the negative force; Byregot creates, Rhalgr destroys; Azeyma represents the sun and guardianship, Nald'thal the underworld and profit; Nophica is the giver of sustinence, Althyk is the keeper/taker of time. So (A) what's up with THE FURY being astral, and THE LOVER umbral?

And (B): Now, it might be that Chapter IV just lists the gods in the wrong order - that that chapter wasn't MEANT to be in order to follow the clear structure of the others - but I think it should be.

EDIT: It seems the gods here are listed in the same order as the Umbral and Astral ERAS but completely different than the Astral and Umbral MONTHS. Why does the hierarchy just turn itself over all of a sudden!? This is a catastrophe! lol

Weekday Order
Oh, man, Gahoo - I hope that's not true; I already made the calendars! LOL
If you kept the old-school 34% 33% 33%, it could go in even MORE orders to properly represent the polarities @.@

Possibility of Umbral Months before Astral Months
This is part of what confused me so much about the months and gods. At the moment, I'm still inclined to say Astrals go first since 5 of the 6 deity sets do go astral umbral, but they START with The Rage and then The Lover, which are the clearest and easiest to organize into Umbral and Astral. Maybe you're right and it just went horribly wrong after.

I have tried to come up with a rationalization for this, or even better, a simple fix. But I don't see it. I see 1 of 3 "solutions":

1. Take Ice as the starting point. This matches with Chapter 3 of The Five Ages - An Eorzean Chronology. It corresponds to the order of the months and days and hours as listed in that book. Plus it corresponds to the Diety associations.

But it does not tie into the era's. To change the lore associated with the era's would be difficult at best, as the Miqo'te came to Eorzea during the 5th Umbral Era (an Ice Age), and their lore cannot really be re-written to have them come to Eorzea during a 5th umbral era associated with fire.

Additional changes would need to be made to some quest lore (i.e. The Wheel of Disaster - but there are a dozen or so similar references) and some ordering in the Tome, but that seems doable compared to the above.

2. If we instead start with Wind, as the Era's do (see The Wheel of Disaster as example of this ordering), some of the ordering of the time lines up (dieties for example), but then nothing much else corresponds. Notably, the associations of each diety would need to change, along with the ordering of the days (or at least the text if in fact the text does not reflect the true order), and the ordering of the months (and associated lore about why they are in the order they are in). Not sure this is really realistic either.

3. That leaves option 3, leave it as is. Certainly seems like some cycles start with Wind and some with Ice. I think when we are talking about time and calendar's it is reasonable premise that there would be consistency and that the civilization would always start a cycle at the same place in the cycle. I guess maybe something can explain away the discrepancy, but it's odd to say the least.

***

I hope we are missing something here. No this is not the end of the world (no pun intended), but there is a deep lore here, and SE does such an incredible job at maintaining an accurate and believable story that it would be a shame if it got confused - especially when 2.0 might be the time to fix it. Looking forward to some clarity from the team - I can ask Yoshida about it at E3, but something tells me he won't be prepared for this type of question ;)

Wow, thanks for typing all that up, Gah; I was dreading going back and ninja-editing my post.

What Gahoo said, everyone. What Gahoo said.

It seems a lot of the confusion in this topic is over everything not matching up all nicely? I'm as OCD as the next guy, but what says the months and eras have to go in the same order? And as far as having an astral and umbral version of each element, the gods pretty much show that that is the case, I think that having 3 as astral and 3 as umbral is simply a gameplay mechanic, and not reflected in the lore. However... there's something odd here as well. You have the elemental wheel up top there, but it doesn't play a huge role in FFXIV. As far as elemental resistances go, there are two wheels, but they don't correspond to the aforementioned "astral and umbral" wheels. Rather, they are Wind > Fire > Ice, and Earth > Lightning > Water. So, we have the two wheels for elemental resistances, the old astral and umbral wheels that don't seem to affect anything anymore, and the big elemental wheel for crystal drops.

So, yeah. Things don't seem to line up in the game.

I'm going to answer these in a specific order, as the answers to them build the foundation of my case, here.

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

I think that having 3 as astral and 3 as umbral is simply a gameplay mechanic, and not reflected in the lore ... You have the elemental wheel up top there, but it doesn't play a huge role in FFXIV ... there are two wheels, but they don't correspond to the aforementioned "astral and umbral" wheels ... the old astral and umbral wheels that don't seem to affect anything anymore, and the big elemental wheel for crystal drops.

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The main wheel is the basis for just about everything in-game, and the two smaller wheels you're talking about are a bi-product of it. It's all precise and still functional and the foundation of the lore, but to understand it requires a bit of working knowledge of both Chinese and Traditional (westernized Islamic) alchemy - which the XIV system is a combination of.

In Chinese alchemy, you have 5 elements that form a pentagram. The outer circle shows how each element creates the next clockwise (generation) and the shape of the star shows how they defeat eachother (control).

http://www.eso-garden.com/images/upl..._the_rat_2.jpg

In traditional alchemy, you have a six pointed star created by two overlapping triangles. These triangles are the symbols for fire and water, and the overlap creates the lines that change the symbols into earth and air; thus the triangle symbolizes all elements. The elements are divided into two categories based on temperature and mosture.

http://mbb.acclivius.com/sites/mbb.a...hemy-Chart.jpg
https://www.alphachisigma.org/view.image?Id=610

Combine these and you arrive at XIV's system. The main elemental wheel, the foundation of measurement standards and philosophy, is the outer circle, which represents how the elements create eachother.

Lightning starts fires,
Fires burn substance into ashen earth
Earth blocks sunlight and harbors cold, creating ice
Ice melts into water
Water evaporates into wind
Wind creates the pressure fronts that create clouds and thus bring lightning

Inside of this circle, you have the six pointed star, created by two overlapping triangles. However, though referencing traditional alchemy visually, functionally it's just like Chinese alchemy: It represents how the elements control eachother; one triangle symbolizes conquest, the other submission.

CONQUEST: Lightning boils water which erodes earth which grounds lightning which boils water...
SUBMISSION: Fire melts ice which obstructs wind which extinguishes fire which melts ice...

Now, instead of temperature and moisture affecting the qualities, we have astral and umbral - which, like in traditional alchemy, divide the elements. In abilities, these influences have been rendered Neutral, so I'm not sure what's up with it philosophically (hence my questions about it above.) Even though the elements are split 3 and 3, it seems that there's a bit of Chinese influence on the elements creating a Yin and Yang (light in darkness, darkness in light, all in all things).

So, it's not two "new" wheels and an adjusted "old' wheel; the same basic master wheel exists the same as always, and that master wheel creates the secondary cycles.

Check it out displayed in this manner and the influence of Classical/Chinese alchemy is very clear.

http://www.ffxivcore.com/index.php?a...attach_id=6731

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

What says the months and eras have to go in the same order?

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No one says they HAVE to, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say they should. What kind of society creates a system of measurement and then abandons it after a few tiers? Here, elemental alchemy seems to be used as a metaphor for the division and identification of time periods -- basically it replaces numbers.

So let's think in numbers instead of elements.

Hours go ----- 1 2 3 4 5 6
Days go ----- 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Months go ----- [1 2] [3 4] [5 6] [7 8] [9 10] [11 12] w/ those blocks being 1 2 3 4 5 6
Years go ----- [5 6] [7 8] [9 10] [11 12] [1 2] [3 4]; thus 3 4 5 6 1 2 ??????????????
Eras go ----- [5 6] [7 8] [9 10] [11 12] [1 2] [3 4] (3 4 5 6 1 2) again ?????????????

It's like deciding that we're going to name our months after the colors of the rainbow and always start with red, and then do the same with years, but then get to decades and decide to just start with green. If you're going to make a system of measurement, it only makes sense to follow it.

Now, even if you accept this as is, it still contradicts itself between time periods, and the Astral Umbral rotation having Halone and Menphina backwards (when the other 5 sets match up light and dark) is strange, too.

Like Gahoo said, no matter how you try to organize it as-is, you end up with inconsistency.

Hell, are we even sure the 7th Umbral Era brings us back to wind? There's a meteor falling and the era was ushered in by insane amounts of rain. I'm not getting the wind feeling, here - though Garuda has been kicking my ass lately.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Urthdigger

So, yeah. Things don't seem to line up in the game.

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I agree; I just think that after so much meticulous research and masterful lore building, leaving it that way is sloppy.

These systems are the foundation of the game down to the fact that they're in our guilds explaining how the CLOCK WIDGET works; I'd like it to at least be the best it can be.

That dusty tome will get fixed sometime. When it do, we'll all thank Moose au Chocolat.