Tsubame-Gaeshi Should Have Been Removed Instead of Kaiten

My hot take:

Tsubame-Gaeshi should have been dropped over Kaiten.

They both serve similar functions. One is used to enhance your Iaijutsu beforehand, the other is used to enhance your Iaijutsu afterward.

However, what they actually represent to the job are as different as night and day. Or should I say winter and summer.

Kaiten has a unique wind-up animation and a really cool name, translating as "turning of the heavens", fitting in with Samurai's theming around the shifting of the seasons--I cannot emphasize how well the artistic concept of Setsugekka aligns with and informs FFXIV's iteration of Samurai. Kaiten contributes *heavily* to Samurai's flavor as a patient/precise critical hitter (as well as an Mystic Knight expy job), literally describing and showing SAM waiting to strike. It provides a fair amount of job expression and decision-making, encouraging active Kenki management and theoretically being usable prior to any weaponskill, not just Iaijutsu.

Tsubame-Gaeshi is none of this. It's a quite lazily designed ability that just repeats the prior attack. It is a "Swallow Counter" that doesn't actually function as a counter, or imply any of the "swiftness" of Sasaki Kojiro's iconic namesake. It doesn't add anything to Samurai's core job fantasy of "wait, focus, and attack", and doesn't contribute quite as well to the Setsugekka motif as Kaiten does (swallows are kind of seasonal, but really only associated with spring and summer). As implemented it's actually quite antithetical to Samurai's job fantasy, being unsubtle "win-more" big-damage spectacle instead of anything suggesting grace, patience, or precision. And on top of that it doesn't have any of the player agency created by Kaiten and its interaction with the Kenki gauge or non-Iaijutsu abilities.

I felt the need to make this a separate thread because I haven't seen much discussion of what I consider the flip-side of Kaiten. Tsubame-Gaeshi is the worst ability in SAM's kit. Frankly it's a terrible ability all-around and if the only reason it exists is as rotational filler then it should have been removed to make room for better SAM abilities.

I'm just going to say we don't need to drop any abilities lol.

I would rather lose neither. I like Tsubame-gaeshi now that it has 2 charges (since that means I don't need to track the cooldown like a hawk anymore).

There are plenty of ways to reduce samurai's button count that would have virtually no effect on the gameplay. Most of them have already been noted all over the forum, but I'll bring up one that I haven't seen elsewhere: merging Kaiten with Iaijutsu.

"It's just a button you have to push every time before you use Iaijutsu." I mean, yeah, if you're doing your rotation correctly - so how about actually merge those two and make that statement literally true. Got your stickers? Use Kaiten, same button turns into Iaijutsu, use Iaijutsu, done. Got Ogi? Use Kaiten, same button turns into Iaijutsu, ignore it, use Ogi, which consumes Kaiten and turns Iaijutsu back into Kaiten. Ideally Kaiten is always paired with Iaijutsu/Ogi - it isn't used with other stuff nor are Iaijutsu/Ogi used without it, so no reason it couldn't "evolve" to Iaijutsu, just like Ogi could evolve from Ikishoten.

Also, another "I'd rather" that I haven't seen elsewhere: keep Kaiten and ditch Shinten. Spamming Shinten is horrible, but imo the idea of weaving Kaiten for Kasha or Gekko now and then actually sounds like an improvement compared to using Shinten as a dump.

I partially agree, but rather I think the issue is less with Kaeshi and more with how Kaeshi (and Meikyo) have two charges and Ikishoten/Ogi are on a two minute CD. This necessitates putting as much of our power into a two minute burst window, creating the very spike in damage that SE is trying to "smooth" out. Removing charges would force SAM back into a 60s cycle, which means instead of up 7 raid buffed GCD's (2x Midare, 2x Kaeshi, Ogi+Kaeshi and Higanbana) we'd only have 4. That right there cuts the potential spike damage by quite a bit. SAM would now have a lesser burst cycle every 60s with the big burst coming with the two minute buffs. This would re-balance damage away from the larger spike into a smaller one without appreciably changing how SAM plays. No skill removals, no potency nerfs, no auto-crit bullshit.

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Originally Posted by cjbeagle

There are plenty of ways to reduce samurai's button count that would have virtually no effect on the gameplay. Most of them have already been noted all over the forum, but I'll bring up one that I haven't seen elsewhere: merging Kaiten with Iaijutsu.

"It's just a button you have to push every time before you use Iaijutsu." I mean, yeah, if you're doing your rotation correctly - so how about actually merge those two and make that statement literally true. Got your stickers? Use Kaiten, same button turns into Iaijutsu, use Iaijutsu, done. Got Ogi? Use Kaiten, same button turns into Iaijutsu, ignore it, use Ogi, which consumes Kaiten and turns Iaijutsu back into Kaiten. Ideally Kaiten is always paired with Iaijutsu/Ogi - it isn't used with other stuff nor are Iaijutsu/Ogi used without it, so no reason it couldn't "evolve" to Iaijutsu, just like Ogi could evolve from Ikishoten.

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At face value that strikes me as a feel bad mechanic. It locks Iaijutsu behind both Sen stickers *and* a wind-up charge. It's similar to another proposal I saw that suggested making Iai require Kenki as well. It removes some degree of flexibility for SAMs to use charged vs. uncharged Iai, which I think is actually a much needed option in the case of Higanbana. I *guess* it could still work, but I wouldn't like the job flavor as much if SAM suddenly shifted to *mandating* wind-ups as opposed to *encouraging* wind-ups. Makes it feel more like a hammer-swinging job than a swiftblade job.

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Also, another "I'd rather" that I haven't seen elsewhere: keep Kaiten and ditch Shinten. Spamming Shinten is horrible, but imo the idea of weaving Kaiten for Kasha or Gekko now and then actually sounds like an improvement compared to using Shinten as a dump.

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This I think is a better direction to go.

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Originally Posted by SeverianLyonesse

At face value that strikes me as a feel bad mechanic. It locks Iaijutsu behind both Sen stickers *and* a wind-up charge. It's similar to another proposal I saw that suggested making Iai require Kenki as well. It removes some degree of flexibility for SAMs to use charged vs. uncharged Iai, which I think is actually a much needed option in the case of Higanbana. I *guess* it could still work, but I wouldn't like the job flavor as much if SAM suddenly shifted to *mandating* wind-ups as opposed to *encouraging* wind-ups. Makes it feel more like a hammer-swinging job than a swiftblade job.

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100% agree - just offering it as an alternative to losing Kaiten that I haven't seen suggested elsewhere that I thought we could consider.

Personally I never Iaijutsu without Kaiten and I never Kaiten except for Iaijutsu/Ogi, so such a change would have virtually no impact on gameplay for me, but you're absolutely right that it's heavy-handed and that it's better to encourage Kaiten than to mandate Kaiten...but better to mandate Kaiten than lose Kaiten. =P

Regardless, I also think I agree with you that ditching Shinten would be the better direction to go - the more I think about it the more I like the idea of weaving Kaiten for Kasha/Gekko instead of dumping with Shinten.

If burst windows are that much of a problem, they could just do the other thing they're doing right now: moving potency from Iaijutsu and Ogi-Namikiri into the weaponskill combos. No need to throttle scalings while removing Kaiten.

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Originally Posted by Atmaweapon510

If burst windows are that much of a problem, they could just do the other thing they're doing right now: moving potency from Iaijutsu and Ogi-Namikiri into the weaponskill combos. No need to throttle scalings while removing Kaiten.

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I'm not sure if that's the solution either because it removes the feel-good from executing "the big nukes." People are already sad (myself included) about all the other potency nerfs.

The problem is that cross-class, on-rails burst windows have been ruining job design. Which to me is SO WEIRD for a game that is increasingly obsessed with (a) casual appeal and (b) soloable content. In both cases, syncing up with 7 other players should not be more important than making the jobs fun to execute in themselves. Imo, all party damage buffs should be removed, heavily minimize or eliminate "party synergy." And then bring back all the cool job gimmicks that have been dropped over the years.

By my count, this wouldn't involve much, just removing/changing:

* DRG - Battle Litany
* MNK - Brotherhood
* NIN - Trick Attack/Mug
* DNC - Technical Finish
* RDM - Embolden

And then a reworking of BRD and AST which frankly could both use it.

Syncing up your DDR rotations with 7 other players is not very fun content. It has a high frustration rate and minimal payoff, and personally I get no thrill from burst window boosts. Certainly not as much as just having cool abilities that actually do things themselves without needing to be in another player's buff window.

If there was something I had to complain about, it would be the 2 charges on Tsubame-gaeshi and Meikyo Shisui. I always view traits that do the most basic of things very lazy design, or they don't know what to do with the job. I think Tsubame should have been repurposed into enhancing the gameplay with Seigan and Third Eye but that avenue is gone. I've seen the suggestion elsewhere to remove the "extra hits" and I have to agree with that (Outside Ogi Namikiri). I feel like it's just been used repeatedly as an excuse to cut the potencies down constantly.

As for the burst windows, I agree. I don't think it's healthy game design and it's better if they just got rid of it all and focused on making jobs unique. The utility that isn't damage related should definitely stay, but otherwise it's just something holding the game back at this point. While they're at it I would like to see options to build jobs in different ways, but that's a pipe dream.