LL 70 Kaiten/SAM preview: Pragmatic/constructive ways to adjust the change before 6.1

vague TLDR:

I'm an advocate for design streamlining who often runs afoul of grognards with MMO mice, but even I think that Kaiten is a problematic target for outright-deletion due to cascading effects on visual and play-feel, since Samurai was originally designed with Kaiten as part of its core.

However, long prior precedent indicates that it's basically a done deal in terms of action/key removal by the time it reaches a PowerPoint slide, so I think that it's better to think about how to work within that reality, rather than just railing in frustration in ways that are unlikely to be heard or even transmitted.

Question #1:
Why would the developers think that it's okay to remove "Hissatsu: Kaiten"?

Okay, so first of all — I cannot, and never have been able to, fathom the minds of the FFXIV Job Design Team.

They tend to start with a reasonable idea ("Kaiten is a bit superfluous", "ShB Summoner is a bit ridiculous timing-wise") and then take it to an extreme ("Let's scrub out every single aspect of Kaiten", "Let's make everything SMN does a GCD").

But my speculation about this specific decision would be that the developers noticed that Kaiten is essentially glued to Iaijutsu. There is really no decision involved whatsoever, it's a rote button.

"But once every 3 months when I'm tired I mess up and overspend my Kenki and then I can't Kaiten before Higanbana so it's a test of skill"

Okay, look, objectively, technically, you are literally correct — Samurai without needing to Kaiten is easier to play than Samurai requiring Kaiten.

But being realistic and honest, the difference in actual practice is so miniscule that this is essentially just an exaggeration to try to leverage it as a persuasive tactic.

To be clear, there were times when Kaiten was a much more significant gameplay factor.

For example, leveling Samurai (or being tortured with Roulette downsyncing) during the period before unlocking the "Kenki 2" trait made Kaiten a significant rotational aspect, because you were constantly on "Kenki vapors", and missing even one positional would force you into having to do a dreaded "naked Iaijutsu".

As well, there were times when Kenki was still harder to manage and to generate:

• Kenki still tied to positionals — the fetish that both FFXIV bosses and tanks have for randomly spinning around and changing position could derange Kenki management and throw off your habits for an encounter. This could easily jeopardize tight Kenki plans.

• Lower Kenki generation — The days when Third Eye did not generate Kenki, and Yukikaze still only generated 10 Kenki, again led to lower overall Kenki income and the spending of Kenki being more rationed and harder to "emergency correct".

• Third Eye still triggered Seigan — Seigan's weird Kenki cost could throw off mental math if you were in the habit of thinking of Kenki being spent in multiples of 25, or conversely, if you got distracted/disconnected and Seigan deactivated.

• Senei/Guren still cost 50 Kenki — this was a much bigger drain and, combined with OG Hagakure / Ikishoten, could make for some very tense Kenki management to both avoid drifting cooldowns, and avoid overflowing Kenki. It was comparatively much easier to become "trigger happy" and bleed down too low for Kaiten.

• Stormblood Hagakure in general — Stormblood's SAM design required a truly vile amount of Shinten spam, and again, fatigue could degenerate those habits into over-spending Kenki due to the relative rarity of needing to actually use Iaijutsu vs. just deleting your Sen with Hagakure.

At this point, though? Kaiten has really become little more than a formality that basically extends every Iaijutsu into 2 keypresses.

It's a completely binary decision, because there is never* any circumstance in which you deliberately want to Iaijutsu without Kaiten.

* I'm sure someone can elucidate on some encounter where it's a 3.6 DPS gain to do a naked 2-Sen Iaijutsu during the last 2 seconds of one specific Savage phase, and only if the boss chooses Pattern #3 (Blue Variant), but...

"But Shinten is simple too"

With Shinten you can look at Kenki and think, "Is Ikishoten coming up? Are raid buffs active? How close is gauge to capping? Should I press this now, or wait?"

It's not a very interesting mechanical aspect, but it still has some vague amount of gameplay toothiness to it.

With Kaiten, the decision is essentially made for you: is it time to use Iaijutsu? Use Kaiten. Is it not time to use Iaijutsu? Don't use Kaiten.

It never goes deeper than that, because you absolutely cannot afford to play games with your Sen generation/spending timings in most circumstances, especially post-Shadowbringers/Tsubame-Gaeshi.

Again, the extra dimension to it used to be "Uhhh, wait, did I save enough Kenki for Kaiten?" But this has been stripped back more and more over time, to the point that it's now a very weak afterthought in the SAM gameplay that rarely actually matters.

"But they could have removed or compressed any of the following actions instead: [list that keeps getting recycled and beaten into the ground]"

Yeah, uh, look, I said, 'I cannot, and never have been able to, fathom the minds of the FFXIV Job Design Team'... and I meant it.

However, I think that this is pretty much a separate topic from Kaiten changes, because the XIV Job designers don't operate as hostage negotiators or State Department envoys, so attempts to bargain for a "prisoner exchange" aren't going to work.

What I mean is, the designers decided that they don't see gameplay value in continuing to support Kaiten as a keypress. So, Kaiten is pretty much going to die as a button, and there's probably no changing that.

Arguing that "Shoha 2: The Legend Continues" should have died for Kaiten's sins is a compelling thought, but not actually making any progress because it's not a 1:1 exchange in this situation.

In other words, whether or not anything happened, or happens, to Shoha 2/Guren/etc., is very likely to have no impact at all on the decision regarding Kaiten.

That's why I think that it's better to try to find a way to negotiate keeping the likeable aspects of Kaiten, rather than fixating on arguments that are essentially doomed from the outset.

Question #2:
What do people like so much about Kaiten?

"I like pressing the button because it sets up a satisfying muscle-memory and key rhythm in Samurai's rotation."

Unfortunately, as someone that enjoyed HW Dark Arts, I think that you should probably make peace with this pleasure while you still can. This is not likely to be a negotiable aspect: Kaiten is ~99% certain to remain dead as a separate keypress.

"I like the satisfaction of watching my Samurai twirl their katana before I begin my Iaijutsu."

This is animation-based, and has no affect on anyone's keybinding or controller assignments. It seems reasonable to request that this be preserved.

However, it is more likely that you will be able to purchase a "Flourishing Wakizashi" emote on the MogStation in 6 months for 5.00 USD, complete with intellect-insulting ad copy about dazzling your friends from the Far East with your consummately-practiced skill as a swordsman. Miqo'te in 2B bottoms with UWU Greatswords will then torment you for months with images of your former friend every time you try to use the Market Board.

• "I like the satisfaction of having to budget Kenki to ensure a successful Iaijutsu."
• "I like the satisfaction of having something additional to spend Kenki on."
• "I like the feeling of draining my gauge a little before unloading my Iaijutsu."

This is gauge-based, and has no effect on anyone's keybinding or controller assignments. It seems reasonable to request that this be preserved in some way.

Question #3:
Are there examples of requests for 6.10+ Kaiten that seem more plausible at this point?

Sure, here's one that I spent < 5 minutes thinking about:

• Iaijutsu and Ogi Namikiri now consume up to 20 Kenki to increase their potency by up to 50%.
• If Kenki is consumed, performs Kaiten animation before beginning Iaijutsu animation.
• Duration of Iaijutsu cast is reduced by the amount of time consumed by the Kaiten animation (ie, the total time spent locked in a Iaijutsu GCD is unchanged).

For example, with Midare Setsugekka:

• 0 Kenki — No Kaiten animation, 660 Potency.
• 5 Kenki — very dim Kaiten animation, 742 Potency.
• 10 Kenki — dim Kaiten animation, 825 Potency.
• 15 Kenki — less dim Kaiten animation, 907 Potency.
• 20 Kenki — full/bright Kaiten animation, 990 Potency.

...etc.

Was this necessary?

No.

Is this a meaningful improvement over current Kaiten?

Maybe? Probably not? I don't know.

Does it remove Kaiten as a semi-superfluous button, without removing the animation or gauge gameplay?

Yes.

Is that good?

I... maybe? ...I don't even know any more. I guess?

BONUS Question #4:
"What about the Crit synergy issues?"

Uhhhh, yeah, I'm not even touching this. The numerical aspects of FFXIV's high-end cooperative design are a hot mess, and way beyond my limited thinking skills.

I will say though, that arguing that SAM's big deadly attacks shouldn't autocrit because it will affect log-parsing synergy seems backwards to me.

The real target for exasperated lobbying should be FFXIV's bizarre Crit stat (which has been out-of-control for a loooooooong time) and Crit party buffs that blithely don't synergize at all with autocrit actions (even though it's entirely possible to add that feature).

However, when Dancer was given a large autocrit action as its Level 90 capstone that only becomes usable after Dancer activates its 20% Crit buff, that's a signal to me that there are way deeper and more confused design issues going on, such that I don't even know where to begin.

Like... this is a legitimate concern and I'm glad that there's people capable of expressing it correctly and lobbying about it, but, I'm not one of those people and I'm just admitting it right now.

It was removed to combat "action bloat", players have identified other more egregious cases of action bloat in the job. This alone should be reason to reconsider the change for a developer. However, maybe Kaiten should get additional use-cases or functionality if its binary nature is enough to be considered action bloat. It would immediately be much more nuanced if it was an equal potency-per-kenki as Shinten when used on Gekko/Kasha, but having a special effect on any of the Sen generating weapon skills could be fun too. Currently a SAM rotation with enough SKS uses Hagakure to dump a seal from filler to stay aligned, but what if Kaiten on a Gekko for instance didn't generate a seal and instead applied a 10 Kenki discount to your next Shinten or something, anything. There are limitless possibilities, and I think they would be making a mistake removing such a demonstrably beloved action because the scope of the patch restricts any more extensive changes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tearagion

It was removed to combat "action bloat", players have identified other more egregious cases of action bloat in the job. This alone should be reason to reconsider the change for a developer. However, maybe Kaiten should get additional use-cases or functionality if its binary nature is enough to be considered action bloat. It would immediately be much more nuanced if it was an equal potency-per-kenki as Shinten when used on Gekko/Kasha, but having a special effect on any of the Sen generating weapon skills could be fun too. Currently a SAM rotation with enough SKS uses Hagakure to dump a seal from filler to stay aligned, but what if Kaiten on a Gekko for instance didn't generate a seal and instead applied a 10 Kenki discount to your next Shinten or something, anything. There are limitless possibilities, and I think they would be making a mistake removing such a demonstrably beloved action because the scope of the patch restricts any more extensive changes.

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Is the funny thing about all this Kaiten nonsense. If it didn’t have a cool animation no one would care. That alone should let you know that it can be chopped if they are trying to clear up space.

Additionally, the combination of buttons can also be done while taking away Kaiten. However, people have this obsession with a certain number of buttons on their hot bar

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

Is the funny thing about all this Kaiten nonsense. If it didn’t have a cool animation no one would care. That alone should let you know that it can be chopped if they are trying to clear up space.

Additionally, the combination of buttons can also be done while taking away Kaiten. However, people have this obsession with a certain number of buttons on their hot bar

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I would care. I like the thematic of spending gauge to empower a different skill. I like having more than one general use spender. I like spenders that are more than immediate damage. There are plenty of reasons to like Kaiten beyond visuals, the difference between visuals and all those other factors is that visuals are the only dimension that could be considered actually realized.

It's not "nonsense" just because you favour the change.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tearagion

I would care. I like the thematic of spending gauge to empower a different skill. I like having more than one general use spender. I like spenders that are more than immediate damage. There are plenty of reasons to like Kaiten beyond visuals, the difference between visuals and all those other factors is that visuals are the only dimension that could be considered actually realized.

It's not "nonsense" just because you favour the change.

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I don’t much care for Kaiten, no. I agree with the OP that it’s a rote ability, and that is why I can understand why the devs chose that ability to snip. Having said that, I don’t particularly care if it stays or goes. Samurai has bigger issues than Kaiten, imo. It’s full of useless bloat.

Alright good talk lol

I appreciate the effort, but I really hope they decide to not go through with the removal of kaiten

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Originally Posted by tearagion

Alright good talk lol

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I’m not knocking why you want to keep it. It’s valid, even if I don’t agree with you. I just don’t think they’re going to keep it if they’re trying to snip an ability or two.

While it can interact with any weapon skill, it doesn’t in practical use. It interacts with one. Instead of people screeching to keep it as is, maybe they should provide ways to make it interact with more than just IAI, so that it’s harder to justify losing it. As it stands, all people really have is that it provides some flash before doing IAI.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Toromak

I appreciate the effort, but I really hope they decide to not go through with the removal of kaiten

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the patch is 10 days away
its all set in stone already with potency adjustments and rework of Iajutsu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kazimere

I don’t much care for Kaiten, no. I agree with the OP that it’s a rote ability, and that is why I can understand why the devs chose that ability to snip. Having said that, I don’t particularly care if it stays or goes. Samurai has bigger issues than Kaiten, imo. It’s full of useless bloat.

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Ability bloat isn't real.