Summoner Rotation: Bahamut/Phoenix vs Searing Light

New Summoner player here. Started @ 80 currently 84. Problem I'm running into: Searing Light is on a hard 120 second cd, but my Bahamut/Phoenix is currently at 55 seconds. So Bahamut/Phoenix come off cd 5-10ish seconds before Searing Light does.

So question is Should I delay Bahamut/Phoenix to fit inside Searing light, or do I delay Searing Light by 5-10 seconds by using Bahamut/Phoenix ASAP?
Both seem to have pros and cons.

Using Tome gear so not much I can do with spell speed.
Also, just finished 5.0 so keep that in mind.

Since I haven't played Summoner yet, I cannot answer in earnest, but from a group optimisation standpoint delaying Searing Light sounds like a horrendous idea when you want to line up most of your raid buffs with the group. That said, it has a 30s duration so you have a bit of leeway regarding that. Probably similar to Devotion a super early Searing Light is not out of question and will cover most bursts windows.

I think you can just delay the Searing Light until after bahamut. This issue should resolve itself at 86 due to the new Garuda and ifrit abilities which will fill that gap. It could also be that you have slightly too much SS (Though given you are still levelling, not sure this can be the case). I find When Raiding Savage that Searing Light coms off cooldown just before Bahamut comes up. You could also off set Searing Light by adding a cast in the opener.

I currently use R3+Searinglight > R3> Bahamut and that sets me up for nice alignment throughout the encounter unless i goof it up (which is usually the case)

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

I think you can just delay the Searing Light until after bahamut. This issue should resolve itself at 86 due to the new Garuda and ifrit abilities which will fill that gap. It could also be that you have slightly too much SS (Though given you are still levelling, not sure this can be the case). I find When Raiding Savage that Searing Light coms off cooldown just before Bahamut comes up. You could also off set Searing Light by adding a cast in the opener.

I currently use R3+Searinglight > R3> Bahamut and that sets me up for nice alignment throughout the encounter unless i goof it up (which is usually the case)

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NEVER delay SL. That’s terrible advice. It’s more of a loss to delay SL than just hold them because it’s not just your damage but the party’s. Now that being said you are correct that the new skills do fill the gap enough and as long as you remember to use everything within the summons phases you’ll never have to delay anything unless you have horrendous spell speed.

Holding Bahamut/Pheonix each for a GCD or two should fix it and makes it easier if the boss has downtime. And if the boss does have downtime adjust based on its length.

Edit: just a reminder SL is long as heck and 3% damage in that length, that’s pretty beefy.

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Originally Posted by LauraAdalena

NEVER delay SL. That’s terrible advice. It’s more of a loss to delay SL than just hold them because it’s not just your damage but the party’s. Now that being said you are correct that the new skills do fill the gap enough and as long as you remember to use everything within the summons phases you’ll never have to delay anything unless you have horrendous spell speed.

Holding Bahamut/Pheonix each for a GCD or two should fix it and makes it easier if the boss has downtime. And if the boss does have downtime adjust based on its length.

Edit: just a reminder SL is long as heck and 3% damage in that length, that’s pretty beefy.

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You are partly right about delaying SL but sometimes you do delay it so "never" isn't really the right term to use. It depends on what the party does as a whole with their buff windows and killtime. Most of the time yeah you don't delay SL but there are times you do delay it if others delay their buffs also. So P2S most groups and my own delay our buff window during limit cut since it's better for us and gives us full uptime on our buffs without really losing a buff overall. The thing smn should never delay is their demis thought because it's a greater loss to your own dps if you lose a demi from delaying it even if it means disjointing your demis from your own SL and others buffs. That is the sad reality of smn right now, you have a rigid rotation that you cant never really change or adjust without losing a decent amount of DPS.

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Originally Posted by LauraAdalena

NEVER delay SL. That’s terrible advice. It’s more of a loss to delay SL than just hold them because it’s not just your damage but the party’s. Now that being said you are correct that the new skills do fill the gap enough and as long as you remember to use everything within the summons phases you’ll never have to delay anything unless you have horrendous spell speed.

Holding Bahamut/Pheonix each for a GCD or two should fix it and makes it easier if the boss has downtime. And if the boss does have downtime adjust based on its length.

Edit: just a reminder SL is long as heck and 3% damage in that length, that’s pretty beefy.

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Just to be clear, when i said delay it, i meant only for a few GCD's and thats only in relation to this specific issue. But it always depends on circumstance and the reason why you would delay it. Even if SL lasts for a long time, if it drifts far enough, it may be worth delaying a few gcd's to bring it closer to align with other buffs.

But the point of the advice was thus: Given the choice between delaying Bahamut or delayng SL - You should Delay SL. Delaying Bahamut for 5-10 seconds is really not a good idea given how rigid SMN rotation generally is. Of course in an optimum setting SL would come off cooldowns 1-2 GCD's before bahamut is ready so you can fit it into your last few Garuda/Ifrit/ titan GCD's. So in the example above I was merely refering to the circumstances listed in OPs post.

I agree that holding bahamut for 1-2 gcds wouldnt hurt but for 5-10 secs? I can't see how that would ever be a good idea.

For opener r3 before 2 secs of pulls then SL r3 then bahamut. However, certain fight you might use R3 2 secs before pull then SL then Bahamut (p2s is prime exemple). It should be always align before bahamut or Ruin 4 (pending on rotation) for SL.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

I agree that holding bahamut for 1-2 gcds wouldnt hurt but for 5-10 secs? I can't see how that would ever be a good idea.

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This part of your response is contradictory. If you delay bahamut by 2 gcds and Pheonix by 2 GCDs you’ve done it by total 10 seconds. 2 GCDs x 2.5 standard GCD length that SMN should stick close to is 5 seconds. What I’m saying is, you’re saying you don’t want to delay 5 seconds but say that it’s alright to delay 5 seconds. And no the idea is that you keep your major cooldowns to align with everybody else’s to maximize damage. If you align Searing Light with other CDs then it’s even more a gain. After reviewing my own statement there are a few more sections where you would delay SL, but most of them all have to do with ensuring that they stay as closely lined up with other 120 cooldowns. And keep in mind that Bahamut and Pheonix are possibly your biggest damage moments. While the rest are good too, Bahamut and Pheonix are just ever so slightly better.

It’s also good to point out that if you keep your rotation to the 2.5 GCD standard and at 90 use all of your skills that you get during normal rotation it should be near impossible to not delay Bahamut/Pheonix in a way that’s comfortable with the rotation and keeping it in line with SL. The only way I see it as being a gain is if it allows you to slip in another stance overall. And even then I’d like to see some calculations on how beneficial that is in the long run. I’m no theory crafter but I imagine the fight would need to be long enough for 11-12 stances to have already passed, which means minimum 10 minutes of the boss being on the field and targetable and having every opportunity to use stance and still have 55-110 seconds left in the fight and at that point it also then begs the question on if it’s more beneficial to not force SL to drift more than it already will and just shave off those 55-110 seconds or close enough.

Sorry for the long analysis, it’s a very complex situation I feel.

Honestly I’m surprised that with all of the changes to SMN they kept the 55 stance. It was what created stance rushing and very unusual gameplay in SHB. Given how streamlined and simple they made it.

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Originally Posted by LauraAdalena

This part of your response is contradictory. If you delay bahamut by 2 gcds and Pheonix by 2 GCDs you’ve done it by total 10 seconds. 2 GCDs x 2.5 standard GCD length that SMN should stick close to is 5 seconds. What I’m saying is, you’re saying you don’t want to delay 5 seconds but say that it’s alright to delay 5 seconds. And no the idea is that you keep your major cooldowns to align with everybody else’s to maximize damage. If you align Searing Light with other CDs then it’s even more a gain. After reviewing my own statement there are a few more sections where you would delay SL, but most of them all have to do with ensuring that they stay as closely lined up with other 120 cooldowns. And keep in mind that Bahamut and Pheonix are possibly your biggest damage moments. While the rest are good too, Bahamut and Pheonix are just ever so slightly better.

It’s also good to point out that if you keep your rotation to the 2.5 GCD standard and at 90 use all of your skills that you get during normal rotation it should be near impossible to not delay Bahamut/Pheonix in a way that’s comfortable with the rotation and keeping it in line with SL. The only way I see it as being a gain is if it allows you to slip in another stance overall. And even then I’d like to see some calculations on how beneficial that is in the long run. I’m no theory crafter but I imagine the fight would need to be long enough for 11-12 stances to have already passed, which means minimum 10 minutes of the boss being on the field and targetable and having every opportunity to use stance and still have 55-110 seconds left in the fight and at that point it also then begs the question on if it’s more beneficial to not force SL to drift more than it already will and just shave off those 55-110 seconds or close enough.

Sorry for the long analysis, it’s a very complex situation I feel.

Honestly I’m surprised that with all of the changes to SMN they kept the 55 stance. It was what created stance rushing and very unusual gameplay in SHB. Given how streamlined and simple they made it.

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Welll SL is only up for Bahamut usually, so its 1-2 GCD for Bahamut only. There is no scenario where it would be available for both Bahamut and Phoenix concurrently. If it was coming up with phoenix, that would indicate considerable drift but the logic for bahamut would also apply to phoenix. Im only going off my own rotational experiece but i generally use 1 r3 between the final arcanum summon move and bahamut and only if required. This is likely because i use r4 in ifrit for swiftcastone of his long casts. Or i use it right after the second before going into the final arcanum (I usually place ifrit in the middle unless something specific requires the order to be adjusted). Either way i rarely have the isuse the OP is having, so i do think that its worth noting that the OP is levelling and is missing parts of the kit which is what is likely causing the awkward alignment.

Ultimately though, in the OP's circumstance, I would only delay Bahamut by 1-2 GCD's if it was to align SL to the rest of the raid buffs, otherwise id use bahamut because the bahamut delay would cause more loss than the SL would buff would provide. Im not a theory crafter, and i dont sit and calculate it mathmatically, im only giving advice based on what i would do given what ive gleaned from using the class.

Tbh I think they ran out of time when reworking SMN and its evidenced in some of the problems that are very easy to identify but seemingly werent picked up.

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Originally Posted by Anvaire

Welll SL is only up for Bahamut usually, so its 1-2 GCD for Bahamut only. There is no scenario where it would be available for both Bahamut and Phoenix concurrently.

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Okay so maybe I’m not saying it clearly enough. After the opener when it gets to Pheonix 55 seconds later you do 2 GCDs to push back Pheonix to 60 seconds so that way in 55 seconds later you only need to push back Bahamut a GCD or two. Total that’s 10 seconds. Never did I imply it would be up for both and I was trying to say that you delay it every time the Bahamut/Pheonix cooldown comes up regardless of if SL is up to make it line up better. Which generally isn’t an issue with 90 summoner but is one with below 90.