Group-DPS buffs aren't real "Utility" or "Support"

They are superficial buffs to make you feel like you're buffing the group when they're really just their to offset your own low DPS. Red Mage's Vercure and Raising capabilities are a much better example of what support and utility is. Dancer and Bard's "DPS" songs and dances are not. Monk's Mantra ability is. I miss NIN's aggro tools a bit. They were fun. Trick Attack's effect is not.

These DPS-focused "support" and "utility" skills are boring and just keep the jobs feeling like DPS bots performing a rotation ad nauseum. I main and prefer DPS classes and don't understand why they can't give them 1 or 2 more hybrid-style abilities, or why they undertune the ones that do have them already. That way SE don't have to worry so much about a DPS job being able to do too much and nerfing a job's performance, because everyone will have their own unique tools (nothing drastic). It's kind of hard for me to explain it.

It's kind of the same issue I had back in HW when there were fewer movement skills to use with jobs. They were FUN and we needed more of them, and now that we do have more of them, lo and behold it feels great! No DPS having a skill like Vercure was also something I felt lacking in HW, people cried "OP!" at the suggestion on these forums (people here are so unopen to these ideas I swear), and then once again they added it when they brought Red Mage on board and it's been GREAT.

THIS is why I think they need to focus more on this kind of support/utility. Rather than just "muh deeps in savage!", I don't just want to play a role I want to play a job. I main a job because I love that particular class. I don't want to job-hop all the time. There's a lot more content than endgame raids. Let the jobs do more. Otherwise what's the point of even having a job system?

Even BLU could have been a normal job in the game with minimal sacrifices if they allowed jobs to be more varied to begin with. White Wind could've soaked half your MP to cast. Make bosses immune to death. Adjust their Kamikaze combo. Etc.

They just didn't want to make their jobs a little harder despite how much money this game makes. And they continue balancing these things anyway so that point is kind of moot.

ANYWAY. I needed to get this off my chest because it's the only thing that annoys the hell out of me in this game after so many years of playing. I don't care if you disagree.

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Originally Posted by GavynG

THIS is why I think they need to focus more on this kind of support/utility. Rather than just "muh deeps in savage!", I don't just want to play a role I want to play a job. I main a job because I love that particular class. I don't want to job-hop all the time. There's a lot more content than endgame raids. Let the jobs do more. Otherwise what's the point of even having a job system?

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The thing is, this is really the only place where such abilities would make a difference, and they can't give us abilities that would make a difference in Savage because then the community mindset would be to prioritize the job that has the difference-making ability to the exclusion of others when given a choice.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The thing is, this is really the only place where such abilities would make a difference, and they can't give us abilities that would make a difference in Savage because then the community mindset would be to prioritize the job that has the difference-making ability to the exclusion of others when given a choice.

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I mean, this pretty much nails the issue with that. Normal content is under tuned so much to be accessible to the most people possible. As a result, support skills like Monk's Mantra are nice to have, but if it's make or break then there are a lot of other issues that need to be dealt with.

Also, you're creating a really superficial definition of support, things that increase DPS are definitely support skills; more importantly, support skills which people will ALWAYS be happy to see at any time during any combat at any point in progression.

It definitely would be nice to see Peloton when cast in combat give a 5s run buff and start a 1m cooldown or something. That would be another nice support skill.

Overall though, other than that, "support skills" (even the stuff you mention) is just "Make Good Numbers Bigger" and/or "Make Bad Numbers Smaller." In that instance, there's no difference between the Dancer/Bard buffs and Monk's Mantra.

Edit: Also Also, if you're not careful with support/utility skills, you may end up taking a class and making it their identity (e.g. Rez Mage) and/or requiring the class to be there in certain circumstances. In general, support/utility balance lately has been more about rewarding people for bringing different classes for different ways of buffing DPS. For example, a crit buff on top of a +damage buff on top of a received damage debuff on the boss is exponentially better than 2-3 +damage buffs.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The thing is, this is really the only place where such abilities would make a difference, and they can't give us abilities that would make a difference in Savage because then the community mindset would be to prioritize the job that has the difference-making ability to the exclusion of others when given a choice.

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A primary example being Ninja. Sure, Trick Attack played a huge role in its meta status through Heavensward and Stormblood but Shadewalker and Smokescreen cannot be underplayed. If you weren't running Warrior, it was downright necessary to bring Ninja otherwise whichever tank pulled needed to be in tank stance. Even Warrior could struggle for aggro off an overly aggressive White Mage or Bard in general. So when you factor in both that utility and Trick, why would anyone bring Monk or Samurai? They often didn't.

If I remember correctly, FFXIV went through the usual design progression:

1. Dev decides DPS with utlility should have lower dps.
2. Progression raiders declare utility DPS garbage. Utility DPS player complains.
3. Devs try to make utility DPS useful to progression, hence utility becomes raid damage buffs.

And to ensure #3, devs have also designed all content to never require any utility. Which means there's no point designing utility skills and abilities.

This is an old debate, and FFXIV clearly chooses to do away with utility to streamline content design and simplify job balance (not in terms of dps potential but in terms of the desirability of each job).

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Originally Posted by GavynG

Red Mage's Vercure and Raising capabilities are a much better example of what support and utility is.
[...]
I main and prefer DPS classes and don't understand why they can't give them 1 or 2 more hybrid-style abilities, or why they undertune the ones that do have them already.

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Like what?
Other than giving DPS heals and raises, what kind of support moves do you think this game could/should support?
And what are these undertuned support moves you referenced?

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Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Also, you're creating a really superficial definition of support, things that increase DPS are definitely support skills; more importantly, support skills which people will ALWAYS be happy to see at any time during any combat at any point in progression.

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Thank you for saying it. DPS damage boosting is utility, and some of us very much enjoy boosting others numbers. I know sure as hell that a big reason why I'm not happy with bard right now if the loss of Foe's requiem, with nothing provided to make up for it's removal.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

If I remember correctly, FFXIV went through the usual design progression:

1. Dev decides DPS with utlility should have lower dps.
2. Progression raiders declare utility DPS garbage. Utility DPS player complains.
3. Devs try to make utility DPS useful to progression, hence utility becomes raid damage buffs.

And to ensure #3, devs have also designed all content to never require any utility. Which means there's no point designing utility skills and abilities.

This is an old debate, and FFXIV clearly chooses to do away with utility to streamline content design and simplify job balance (not in terms of dps potential but in terms of the desirability of each job).

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I remember a different story. Since ARR, utility dps have always outperformed selfish dps and this was especially true during HW. Actually this extended to healers, after the initial round of AST buffs. It wasn't until ShB that selfish jobs were tuned properly. Unless you were referring to 1.0, but I'd say that was a completely different game.

At the end of the day, utility is fine as a concept, however the way ffxiv implemented it was problematic because utility jobs used to put selfish jobs to shame in a decently coordinated party in terms of total damage, which is the thing that matters the most in this game by design.

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Originally Posted by GavynG

OP.

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This is a part of why so many people complain about homogenization and have the opinion every job has lost its identity and feels the same to play..

The only think that separates job a from job b most of the time is the weapon they use which then makes them ultimately boring.

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Originally Posted by Rongway

The thing is, this is really the only place where such abilities would make a difference, and they can't give us abilities that would make a difference in Savage because then the community mindset would be to prioritize the job that has the difference-making ability to the exclusion of others when given a choice.

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From experience the community doesn't do this often, the attitude even in Savage being "play the class you enjoy, you'll perform better than trying to bring the top meta class". RDM as an example is perfectly fine, having Raise, Vercure and decent dps yet BLM having 0 utility still sees a lot of play too. As does WHM despite no shields or raid buffs. The community does get stuck into weird notions like "2 melee 2 ranged", "Always Noct AST with WHM" or "no doubles" even when they don't need lb3, but they're generally fine on class choice.

The fear of the community mindset shouldn't hinder class design. Players really aren't that bad. Sure some people exclude classes, but it's only a tiny handful really.