[Speed Runs] [Class Stacking] Suggestions

So, I see this topic a lot. People seem to dislike the idea of speed runs, as well as class stacking. I was chatting with a friend, and we sort of stumbled upon a few ways that things could be done better. I don't know how the Garuda fight is being made to make melees more desirable as was mentioned, but that shouldn't exclude these suggestions I don't think.

[Speed Runs]
This seems to be one of those hot topics; people think speed runs are a lame way of doing things, and that it encourages class stacking. Also, the content ends up being dull because you're striving to finish each run as fast as possible, so the job setup is stacked to accomplish that goal (another issue entirely, but I'll address that too)

Personally, I think the speed run concept is fine, it's just not being done in a way that is exciting in the least. My suggestion is this; instead of having 60 minutes on the clock to finish the run, and having to finish it in under a certain amount of time in order to get that 5th chest we do something like this. We set our own time limits, not over 60 minutes. The 5th chest is present at the end of every run regardless of the time you finish in. The droprate of the "good" items (i.e. Darklight) though, is purely based on how much time you gave yourself to finish the run. A group that wager's they can beat the run in 10 minutes will have a greater chance of getting that higher quality gear than a group that wagers they can do it in 40 minutes. Both groups, though, still get that 5th chest and a chance at the gear. This would hopefully quell those complaints on the drop rate of Darklight gear.

I have no idea how difficult something like this would be to implement, but this would quell a lot of complaints around the current method in place. Also, being close to a time limit increases the excitement level for the run - being 1 minute from failure when you kill the last boss is more exciting than having 30+ minutes remaining on the clock. This would potentially server to make the dungeons more exciting and enticing for more people, as they wouldn't get so stale so fast.

[Class Stacking]
The problem with class stacking in FFXIV will always be present in the current system. Making one fight where melees are more desirable just excludes the BLM's and BRD's as much as the fights where ranged DD's are more desirable excludes the melees. I realize we don't know how the Garuda fight will be, and what reason we may have to use melees but I imagine it will make melees the best option for the fight.

A simple solution to encourage players to vary their types of damage rather than stack them would to put a sort of defense boost or defense down "triangle" in place. The two ways this could be done to actually discourage class stacking:

1. Method One (Reward): Each type of damage gives a "defense down" debuff to the attacked mob specific to a different type of damage. Ex: Melee DD's attack a mob, it gets "magic defense down", which boosts the nukes done by other party members. Nuking in this way resets the "magic defense down" effect in a manner similar to how berserk/rampage work. The nuke also provides a "projectile defense down" effect. Basically, as long as you have 3 different kinds of damage going on, they synergize together to do more damage.
2. Method Two (Penalty): A mob has it's defense split three ways: magical, projectile, and melee. stacking damage of one type slowly increases it's defense against that type, while reducing the defense of the other types. So, if you stacked BLM's, the mob may alter it's defense from 33%/33%/33% to 50%/25%/25% (Magic/Ranged/Melee) over time. This way, rather than rewarding players who stack classes because "X is the best DD to use on mob Y" they are forced to vary their forms of damage, otherwise they suffer a penalty on all their DD's.

Method One seems better to me, as it doesn't punish class stacking but rewards varying classes. Method Two is less game-breaking though, as Method One could increase the DPS of a well-rounded group immensely.

At any rate, I realize this is quite a long post but as I said, these seem to be topics that come up a lot. Personally, I hope something is done to discourage class stacking for 2.0, so rather than complaining I figured I'd post some valid methods to counter it.

Your speedrun suggestion is hugely immersion breaking. A dungeon crawl is not a sport and no NPC is going to treat it as such. Besides, it'd add another layer of clumsy menu navigation and/or NPC dialogue. No thank you. Just kill the time limit and make the dungeon actually difficult so that the challenge doesn't come from beating it fast enough but from beating it at all. Combine this with a healthy drop rate for items and a 12h lockout period after a win and we're golden.

The boss suggestions are something that could be used as a gimmick for a boss, but it's really not so hard to come up with other ways to accomplish the same thing. If Ifrit didn't have Sear and Vulcan Burst, melee would be just as good as ranged. You'd probably want to add another ability to Ifrit to make up for the loss, but the point is this: If you give bosses abilities that punish melee but not ranged, melee is going to suck. This really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

My guess is that Radiant Plume was supposed to be the balancing anti-ranged ability Ifrit has, but it ends up doing nothing because the safe spots are there. Also, it's so fast and covers so much of the arena you can't reliably evade it without abusing the spots anyway, so if the spots are removed, the ability itself would need a nerf until 2.0 comes and fixes the lag.

Your time-based solution still doesn't fix the issue I have with dungeons, which is that "speed runs" always involve skipping most of the content (ignore the trash mobs), which makes the dungeon very bland. Setting your own time limit will still encourage people to literally speed through the dungeon as fast as possible if they set the time low, so no thanks.

I would suggest making the 5th chest always appear (or appear if you killed enough trash mobs), and perhaps make its drop rates relative to how many trash mobs you killed.

I would be fine with your class-stacking suggestion, however.

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Originally Posted by Raldo

Your time-based solution still doesn't fix the issue I have with dungeons, which is that "speed runs" always involve skipping most of the content (ignore the trash mobs), which makes the dungeon very bland. Setting your own time limit will still encourage people to literally speed through the dungeon as fast as possible if they set the time low, so no thanks.

I would suggest making the 5th chest always appear (or appear if you killed enough trash mobs), and perhaps make its drop rates relative to how many trash mobs you killed.

I would be fine with your class-stacking suggestion, however.

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That's part of what I'm getting at. The problem is the 5th chest is just that; a fifth chest. It would be nice if it's odds of dropping something worthwhile were modified by something players could do, like as you say - based on # of trash mob kills. That's somewhat in line with my time-estimation concept just done differently (you're losing time by killing the trash mobs, essentially wagering that you will be able to beat the rest of the run fast enough to make up for it). Anything other than yes/no 5th chest based on a static time limit would be a little more engaging I think

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Originally Posted by Frein

Your speedrun suggestion is hugely immersion breaking. A dungeon crawl is not a sport and no NPC is going to treat it as such. Besides, it'd add another layer of clumsy menu navigation and/or NPC dialogue. No thank you. Just kill the time limit and make the dungeon actually difficult so that the challenge doesn't come from beating it fast enough but from beating it at all. Combine this with a healthy drop rate for items and a 12h lockout period after a win and we're golden.

The boss suggestions are something that could be used as a gimmick for a boss, but it's really not so hard to come up with other ways to accomplish the same thing. If Ifrit didn't have Sear and Vulcan Burst, melee would be just as good as ranged. You'd probably want to add another ability to Ifrit to make up for the loss, but the point is this: If you give bosses abilities that punish melee but not ranged, melee is going to suck. This really shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone.

My guess is that Radiant Plume was supposed to be the balancing anti-ranged ability Ifrit has, but it ends up doing nothing because the safe spots are there. Also, it's so fast and covers so much of the arena you can't reliably evade it without abusing the spots anyway, so if the spots are removed, the ability itself would need a nerf until 2.0 comes and fixes the lag.

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I get what you're saying, and as for the speedruns you may be right. I'm just saying that if they're dead set on the method of increasing drop rates being speed runs, why not make the system a little more engaging and exciting than what it currently is.

It could even be something like how in some action games (Devil May Cry comes to mind) your "grade" is based on multiple factors, such as kills and run speed (could even give a bonus for class variance), rather than just one. Personally, I would prefer the challenge being beating the dungeon and only being able to do so on a longer timer as you say (and with an accordingly higher drop rate). There's other way's of doing it but it just seems how it's being done right now is boring and discouraging. I'm fine with spamming speed-runs personally but I would definitely prefer something that's actually exciting/fun.

You're probably right with the ifrit examples, and that because sear is unavoidable and plumes are avoidable is what causes the preference for ranged DD's. I just hope they don't tailor garuda for melees just because ifrit ended up being tailored for ranged DD's. Again, I'd just like to see a more interesting system that doesn't punish class stacking but makes it worthwhile to split the classes. For example, in AV, BLM is great for most of the run, and then MNK at the end. It would be nice to have at least some variety/reason to use multiple classes/jobs. What I was suggesting is essentially a dumbed down version of Skillchains/Magic Bursts. I definitely like combo's, but I'm just saying theres plenty of things that could be done to encourage class variance in a single run, rather than class variance for different runs.