Edit / Tl;dr purpose (and I encourage others to make stuff up, I'm not strictly desiring my exact interpretation I just want to see these two things in some form):
General thoughts of below: The below I like because it not only says Paladin uses clemency sometimes but that Paladin SHOULD use clemency, as if you didn't then you wouldn't be able to optimally deal damage (like a GNB who forgets to use Auroa wont be in trouble in the damage department- it's okay if they forgot.. well not okay ideally but it's okay in terms of their personal damage). There are concerns like "what if I don't have anybody to cure" which can be addressed with another skill that can alternatively be used, and other issues like "isn't that a bit too complicated". I'm not suggesting it's perfect, just that these two desires I very much have for the next iteration of Paladin. Particularly I feel like whoever makes Paladin listens closely to the players, so I feel it worth to ask nicely to them- also whoever works on Paladin is responsible for my favorite job lol. So please suggest your own ideas too. I'd love to hear some more big boom Paladin ideas. I very much enjoy the idea of Paladin being like a tank that in a judgement of protection occasionally turns into a supernova of might and holy wrath (doesn't need to feel 'angry' if that steps too much into warrior's stuff, but like angelic "enough! I deem you finished" vibe). Love. It. Confiteor may be an example of going this way, and I don't want it to activate/behave exactly like that spell so it feels different/interesting to build/use, but yes more holy might :D <3.Quote:
1) Create a mechanic for clemency to be used without being a strict loss in damage, so likely something on interval. Ideally by making it combo/relate to some other mechanic rather than just changing the default action of the spell from being spammable/with cast time to oGCD (that change I'd consider negative, the base cast time/spammability while being a damage loss should remain)- ie don't make it just Auroa. Of course don't purposefully imbalance other tanks- which is why this thread is dedicated to expansion talk where things can change for all jobs and so balance can remain fair yet as unique as possible (which is an extreme tight rope I know, good luck SE ;3 lol).
2) I really love the imagery of Paladin building up and coming down with holy judgement (particularly one /big/ move rather than spamming one pretty neat smaller move, so not warrior axe spam for example), marching along and then WHAP holy crusader bringing down the wrath of "insert some god here" lol. So for the concept below they're tied together in mechanics but it doesn't have to be that way! I'd still like both but they don't have to be tied together.
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Just a thought that came about in general discussion when talking about clemency. The context was nerfing the skill but I quite like it, yet we all know that it's a damage loss so you shouldn't really be using it unless everything is going into the waste bin and you've got to dig deep to pull the crashing plane back. Also it can make healers annoyed as it sort of tells them you've a lack of faith in them.
Obviously adding an oGCD component to the spell would mean you could cast it more without telling your healers you're losing damage to cover their backs but I don't want to see the whole spell become on cooldown exclusively- so that's the thought of this suggestion way off in the future (no need to re-balance/change things now- thinking expansion content). Also I didn't want to see it become too close to simply being oGCD.
The idea here then is to play with Clemency which is forgiveness and divine judgement concept and mix it so it's not a DPS loss (sometimes) but is still a hard castable spammable ability. Here you've a new shield oriented skill come into play.
In order to load Judgement you have to gain a stacking buff from using clemency, you can only gain this stacking buff once every ~60.5 seconds. Which happens to revolve around your Requiescat recast timer, so ideally you cast one clemency in your instant cast magic rotation but you could hardcast it once at a bit of dps loss instead of a full loss like before (as if instant cast it would only be a gain and if hardcast once Judgement would recoop a little bit of it). If concerned could make the cycle longer (every other magical cycle at a 2 minute cooldown, which would mean the spell has excuse to be super epic looking), but also wanted to add is casting clemency is a DPS loss until you fire off Judgement and some of that DPS judgement does is just catching up on your loss, while other tank's ogcd heals can be weaved in at zero loss. If you wanted to make the mechanic strict support and if there were concerns about Paladin's survive-ability jumping due to self casting a huge cure on cycle the buff could be associated with casting it on other players only (unless you're not in a party, in which case self cast is allowed). Buff name being something related to holy/judgement/mercy- like penance or something. Because you can cast clemency without a boss present the Paladin also isn't ruined if a boss jumps off screen for a while (can just cast it in the down time of the boss).Quote:
Judgement (name just a place holder): After being charged up (consumes a minimum X stacks), from another mechanic, the Paladin wraps their sword hand / sword onto their shield with magic sparks flaring off and then the shield floats up above their head with their sword held center of body and pointing upwards- energy tracing up the sword and into the shield. An aura around the shield expands like a holy crown you see in some religions, then doing a downward swing with the sword like 'fire the arrows' / siege attack command you might see in movies (sword out and extended) then the shield and the aura ignite- producing a giant beam (Kamehameha / ion cannon) firing down onto the enemy dealing significant single target damage and moderate aoe damage (with dust, rocks, and beam colliding at location creating kick back waves). Shield magically fades away and reappears at your arm. To prevent animation lock once the shield is in the air it could consider the spell already finished and the Paladin could move around (canceling out the last bit of the animation but if you fill that with another attack it'll look about the same, depending on which sword attack you use- shield can finish it's animation while you run around visually but not mechanically shieldless for a second or two). The wrapping and lifting being rather quick as well, so again you're not locked into place while the boss makes you a floor tank.
Edit: If there are concerns about it being too similar to Confiteor (a skill I also really like), could change some of the effects as well as ideally cast timing. For example in the effect department it could debuff and while dealing substantial single target damage is more mild on the aoe, or it leaves a sanctified field at the target area (that could have the debuff/aoe damage built in), and in terms of cast time you might change the visuals a little and make it empowered by FoF meaning you definitely won't cast it in your magic phase (giving it more balance and distance to Confiteor if that's an issue).
I had left it a bit vague in the first part of the description since I assume SE would find their own vibe, but definitely make effort to give it a difference (mechanically, effects, etc).
Another skill could also work with clemency to accomplish this cycle (no stacking between the two skills though, hard limit on how fast judgement builds), like a new group buff Paladin can cast- so Paladin's can see "healers got everything taken care of but I need to build judgement, so lets just group buff instead" (that buff up to you, could be a small group wide shield that lasts a while so it cures less than clemency but can help more into the future, or it could be things like damage reduction/damage buffs).
Might lock Paladin's cure in as the best tank in the game on all accounts (DRK's shield is super spammable, WAR/GNB's is also spammable without loss and is quite nice potency as well, but this change would help Paladin be able to use theirs too and probably change that relationship) yet that would fit Paladin's theme of support and I like to see Paladin's 'tank' like crusader image increase who brings it hard in big build ups like our current huge sword move which I love. Also we have to assume the other tanks will gain things too, so perhaps more vampiric/break-away shields/regens/and other tools for the other tanks so it's not clear when all the dust settles as the other jobs would grow too.
Thanks for reading :)
Edit: in attempts to suggest an alternate concept to activating clemency might be around confiteor, where after you cast that you have 60 seconds to cast one free clemency oGCD. That gives you freedom to choose when to cast it and makes the window of action easy to know (since the buff window to get to confiteor is 60 seconds). Also a bit of an extra reward for not being silly and missing your big capstone spell. May or may not want to withdraw Judgement from that loop though, as while finishing it would be rewarding it also means players would wait to the end to load clemency and if they messed that up they'd more significantly damage their performance (as it's an oGCD rather than taking the place of a holy spirit, and that means hardcasting it would be even farther from optimal). You could of course tie it to Requisecat, but I feel that would be less exciting (tied to confiteor would mean your gift for not messing it up is a free oGCD vs req which is a spell that makes instant cast spells with another instant cast spell). Still I'd like to see another heavy hitting Paladin spell (that isn't spammed in a row), so the ideas can be separated, and there are suggestions for other methods below, just in the end I'd love to see both of the 1 & 2 desire points above in some way ~ :D !
Paladin Clemency / New Nuke Skill (for next expansion)
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06-06-2020, 02:08 AMShougunPaladin Clemency / New Nuke Skill (for next expansion)
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06-06-2020, 07:39 PMMithia
You just described Confiteor in a roundabout way.
Paladin doesn't exactly need more damage, they are pretty well balanced on that department right now.
Clemency isn't as bad either as people make it out to be however, combined with Requisecat it can heal for quite a bit. But anyway, if you are looking for synergy with clemency then I suggest we take a look at Requisecat in the first place.
If we translate it from Latin, then we come to "a wish or prayer for the repose of a dead person." Somewhat we could have a skill called Divine Intervention that synergizes with Clemency, where you trade your Confiteor for example in exchange for raising a dead person. -
06-06-2020, 10:03 PMSamRF
I really like this idea. What I dislike about current Clemency is the fact that you barely get to use it and I'd love to be healing more often as a Paladin since it fits their flavor, this sounds like a pretty unique way of implementing incentive to cast Clemency.
Only thing I can't wrap my head around is this limitation that you can only get a stacking buff from Clemency every 60 seconds, how do you keep track of that? Would be much simpler if Judgement is on a ~60s cooldown and that you need 1 charge to be be able to cast that, charge which you get by casting Clemency. This way, they can even make it that the charges stack? Could be interesting. -
06-07-2020, 01:08 AMShougunIn that case would you call atonement also Confiteor? Judgment would actually be a spell you charged and didn't require requisecat, unlike Confiteor. I believe that makes them different enough, they're both big cool spells but judgement would be on a much bigger looser loop (you could hardcast clemency or not). Or was it simply that it can aoe? Could mix it up, deals heavy single target and lighter aoe and debuffs everyone (debuffs that boss may ignore but that's okay because single target damage would be worth). Also to note is the skill doesn't have a time limit to use once available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithia
Also I do not agree on the idea paladin can't use more damage since I've built the base of the ability under the idea of the next expansion, if we are talking at this second then sure I agree though lol. But it would be sad to not get a single damage spell in an expansion which is what this thread has sat on as a key design component. Also I do love Confiteor so if it was seen similar I'd be okay with that, it's awesome :3.
The raise idea is both an awesome yet terrifying thing to behold lol. Because it's so hard to kill a tank it would be super helpful to have a tank that could raise.... Like super helpful and in every content the game has. If they found a way they thought was fair I wouldn't say no though- cause I'd feel pretty mega powerful lol.
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Originally Posted by SamRF
I just imagined a buff that was consumable or a job gauge icon- shows up when you can use it. Main reason for this was to allow paladin a big move around their kit that they have already and while also making clemency still have feelings of investment (which are spread over multiple rotations). I assume GNB was going to get new support skills too but I wanted to add extra difference between Aurora and this mechanic, which is why I suggested the timer may even be a little longer IF it had to be (since if it doesn't kill our damage we can use it more but we don't want it to feel like we killed tank differences either).
So your little judgement gem on UI or buff bar or whatever lights up when charge able, use clemency and it gains you a notch- once you've enough you can cast it whenever. Also wanted in cycle so it doesn't always follow every confiteor. You could make stacking charges, though might want to change the spell animations like perhaps to the holy like sword move that the ShB sineater guy has (so if you fired many charges off it'd look pretty epic, but one off would look fairly normal- and you could make it physical so you load it in the magic phase but cast it in the FoF physical phase). -
06-07-2020, 02:26 AMMithia
If we are talking about pure damage, then I'd rather see the job gauge provide something of use other then defensive tools. Sure, sheltron and intervention are nice, but I'd rather see different uses than just those 2. Yes, I know cover is there as well.
Anyway, if it has to be clemency, then I'd say a vague cleric stance iteration would suit your idea quite well. During this time Clemency can be used on hostile targets and instead of healing enemies it would damage them. Essentially using the light to damage enemies, but hey, that would just be a different version of Holy Spirit tbf -
06-07-2020, 06:30 AMUltimatecaliburBeing different enough does not necessarily make an ability a good inclusion. As you currently have it described Judgment's usage would have it either being used every minute after the Requisecat burst (which now replaces a Holy Spirit with a Clemency and then follows up Confiteor with Judgement) or once you get max stacks which could take multiple minutes by your description.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shougun
A far simpler method of making Clemency more usable would be to have is grant a simple buff on something like a 30s timer that iincreases the potency of the next Confiteor by the potency of a Holy Spirit (currently 350).
Bad idea. Tying damage to a defensive resource will just make it so that the defense usage because non-omptimal and therefore useless according to ffxiv's dps centric meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithia
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06-07-2020, 07:01 AMShougunIt would take multiple cycles so definitely not after every req. Mostly to add more distance from Aurora and investment to the spell, as well as giving reason for Judgement to hit harder and look bigger. Another reason why I avoided the more simple, faster, concept like you suggested. Though obviously that could work to the purpose of using clemency more often without being silly to do so (though I worry 30s being way too short, obviously we can play that though ;)).Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur
Didn't say it makes it good just because it's different, just that I don't think it's exactly Confiteor. I mean you've got stuff on Red Mage where it sometimes get's double capstones (two big spells one after the other depending on procs), so you might see that here a bit but how one builds and behaves I believe can make it different enough that it isn't just 1:1 Confiteor (maybe Confiteor 3.0 electric boogaloo if really wanted to argue it but then as we simplify stuff I can say that atonment is basically repeated confiteor 2.0).
Especially as there are mechanical differences like you don't even need to build the spell during requiescat, although that would be ideal due to the instant cast (but for whatever reason if you had to hardcast one your damage loss would be slightly buffered rather than a full loss), you don't need an enemy present, and you don't need to use it right away just ideally within the 60 second, whatever time frame, loop so you don't miss out. Also why I mentioned we could gain another support skill that's different than clemency that could trigger the effect too if for whatever reason clemency is just so uneeded you're doing it because "I have to". And I am totally up for other changes of course.
Ultimately I just want to see A. clemency /sometimes/ get usage that doesn't annoy healers or drop your damage while also not ruining other tank's specials / becoming OP (Auora on GNB being a close comparison, although have to also imagine other tanks may gain stuff that makes that a lessor concern.. whatever that is) and B. I'd love to continue to see Paladin get big dump spells for damage as I really like the crusader tank vibe where there is consistent marching and then heavy holy wrathful artillery. Was just a two in one here.
I mean in terms of keeping it simple we could even make it so after you Confiteor your next clemency is instant cast, so every 60 seconds- that's pretty simple. Anytime within 60s you can use clemency once for free oGCD. That keeps it on a decent cooldown, that is also easy to know because it's based on your pre-existing buff window.
I still would love a big dump spell though lol, and I do like the idea Paladin gets wrath every time his allies are hurt and he has to cure them. I assume SE is going to take whatever suggestion and remix it anyways. Which they should do when considering balance too, I've no idea what other tanks will gain/want- so no idea how to make a skill fair in that situation without knowing that info. So that's why upfront here I just say I want two things next expansion and I think it's fine if they're put together lol, while not crazy about using atonement three times in a row I still quite like Paladin, my favorite job, as it has grown, and have faith in the next remix/growth of it.