Is it official? Are we tempered? (5.2 spoilers / speculation)

With the revelation that the echo is merely, as described by Elidibus, a remnant of the power the ancients had... And as we witnessed how an illusion could awaken this remnant of power even on the fragmented souls in the first.

Consider this: the ancients that summoned Zodiark were tempered by him.
That means the echo =/= temper-proof, considering even the 'real deal' couldn't protect them from zodiark's influence... Therefore, could it be this whole time we thought we were immune to tempering was just correlation, in the sense that we aren't protected from tempering, as much as it might be that we simply already were tempered?

Could it be that when we attain the echo, we are tempered by Hydaelyn? (Hear, feel, think...) And now that we know tempering by Zodiark still allows his subjects (the ascians) to retain such a grand level of autonomy and reasoning, it no longer stands impossible to reason that we are likewise tempered by her.

I know it's old old stuff, but don't forget Ifrit's shock when he first tried to temper us and fails, only to exclaims in realization that "we've been claimed by another" (paraphrasing there).


Thoughts?

That theory falls a bit flat though (not to mention is contradictory) by how 1.0 showed plenty of people at the Waking Sands who had been awoken to the Echo, and not one mentioned anything about supporting "the Mothercrystal" or "Hydaelyn" (hells, Hydaelyn's name was not even mentioned at all in 1.0 period). Most were not even fighters, but regular people, merchants, housewives and husbands, even children, all they said is that they had experienced a vision of a "starshower" and then started to have "visions", they were just confused about why they had been given this 'gift'. Where as those shown to be tempered by Primals immediately devolve into Primal-worshipping zealots throwing up their arms in devotion to their new false god.

So I don't know, the "Echo is tempering and we're tempered by Hydaelyn accordingly" idea is an old theory that the game unfortunately continues to enjoy teasing without actually confirming or denying it outright, and has given more traction with the recent patch story. I still hold to the "no it is not" idea, because of the aforementioned references, but I do have to at least admit now that the possibilty cannot be dismissed completely, but we will find out more soon enough I guess.

*imagines a certain ahriman at his desk grinning* ;)

Ifrit didn't say that. Here's what actually happened:
https://imgur.com/a/04b8i8G
It's Temugg Zoh that gets shocked and says you must belong to another. Ifrit says that's usually how it works, but says he can't smell the taint of another on you. Therefore he he thinks you must be of the "godless blessed's number" that the Paragons warned him of.

The Ifrit scene in ARR was recycled from the Ifrit scene in 1.0, where he said...

Quote:

---

Ifrit
You avow yourselves blessed by gods, yet lack the capacity to summon them to your aid.
To which do you kneel, mortals?
[Path Companion says some form of, "No primals for me, thank you."]
Fools. Blind to the grace of those who would grant you protection and bless you with their fortune.
[Path Companion says some form of, "If I had protection, would I be here with you?"]
Your blindness is born of ignorance.
I smell the taint upon your soul. Is it Garuda...or Titan? Perchance...Leviathan?
[Path Companion says some form of, "No primals for me, remember?"]
Vex me not, mortals. The Paragon warned of the godless blessed.
There can only be one true god in this world, and those without cannot be allowed to roam unchecked.
Yet the Paragon has entreated that I spare you, and so I shall─on one condition.
Vow that you shall forsake the summoning of Another. Do so, and your sins will be absolved. Refuse me, and your soul will burn for eternity.

---

If you compare this to the ARR version, you can see some definite story evolution happening behind the scenes.

Just food for thought, the Warrior of Light doesn't just have the Echo, doesn't just have a shard of the Mother (Crystal of Light) capable of Her divine intervention being cast through it as the blessing of Light, but also has additional powers granted only to "Hydaelyn's Champion," including the ability to interfere with the aetherial realm directly so that the crystals of Light as a complete set are drawn to our strength and remain "charged". Comparing us to other Echo users or other Crystal Bearers isn't always 1:1.

Isn't saying "Hear, feel, think" the opposite of being tempered ?
Up until now, Hydealyn's blessing if more a tool to achieve our own goal.
At least, that's my point of view.

1. The starshower in the Crystarium was an illusion created by an Ascian, but Elidibus confirms that Hydaelyn herself uses the starshower illusion to awaken the Echo in people.
2. Primals can usually only temper you if you're in close proximity... but the whole world is named after Hydaelyn. She's sort of everywhere already. It's perfectly reasonable to think that the starshower visions are accompanied by tempering, even if the Echo and tempering are fundamentally different processes.
3. The immunity to tempering that is associated with the Echo can have two explanations:
i) Only super-primals like Hydaelyn and Zodiark have the power to temper Ancient or Echo-awoken souls.
ii) Everyone we know with the Echo who is confirmed to be immune to primal tempering has already been tempered by Hydaelyn. Including us.
4. Considering that Zodiark's tempered retain a lot of autonomy, and that Hydaelyn's whole raison d'etre is to stand up for the rights of the non-Ancients who arose in Zodiark's restored world... it's reasonable to think that being tempered by Hydaelyn may involve no more than being immune to tempering by others. Hydaelyn just wants nothing more from us. Perhaps that was the strategy of her summoners all along - to protect people from the tyranny of primals like Zodiark, by creating a primal whose only goal would be to protect people from being tempered by primals.

If we're able to question whether or not we're tempered (as Ardbert does in one inn scene of Shadowbringers), we probably are not.

Even if we are, it's had no observable effect on our behavior.

Consider the fact that Ardbert and co. were anti-Hydaelyn when we first met them.

When they were super angry at her because they thought that she didn't care about them because the Flood of Light was happening. So much so, that they sought the aid of Ascians and then gave up their mortal bodies in order to then go to the Source and cause a Rejoining with reasons that are mostly for the preservation of their worlds souls, but also partially just to spite Hydaelyn.

IF being a "Warrior of Light/Darkness" means to be Tempered by Zodiark/Hydaelyn, then how would it be possible to actively go against said entity that Tempered you?

Further to this, if there's this global "Tempering" happening due to Hydaelyn being the "Will of the Star" and thus ever present... Then surely ALL Ancients would have been Tempered by Zodiark (Who was also the "Will of the Star") and thus there wouldn't have been potential for the sect to appear that decided to summon Hydaelyn in the first place.

I still doubt we are tempered. First these words come from Elidibus (that Hydealyn uses this to get her WoLs) so I remain skeptic and honestly it makes no sense. Seemingly quite a few people have gotten the echo (according to Elidibus) and a few of those heard Hydealyn too but only two left. The rest was convinced by the exarch to stay. So the echo itself cant be tempering and I doubt that hearing Hydealyns voice alone tempers people. We only became a Wol ourselves after getting crystals of light and we never changed our behaviour.

We see how tempered people behave, even someone like Emet who knew us kept on this plan. There is no indication that someone that is tempered can go against the will of the primal. Even if they have still some ways to act on their own this fact seems to remain.

But we already know of WoLs (so those that truly have her blessings) that went against her. That even became corrupted and tried to do things that hurt her. Heck even Ardbert and his groups were out trying to kill us. How can they do that if we are tempered? How would they be able to even think about betraying her?

Then we have the case with Zenos and his echo. People say that echo is a tempering on his own which is why we cant be tempered but how can the resonant echo be it too if its not a natural one? I guess that echo grants you a protections against losing your mind to the influence of others but with Zodiark they may have specifically created him with the wish of bringing order since their creation magic was going wild. So of course order for the mind is done by controlling them..and a lot of the primals that were summoned by beast tribes are done after the teaching of the Asicans. Of course those would include tempering too.

We dont know for sure if Hydealyn follows the same way. Heck we dont even know if she is summoned right now or if its just her essence that exists in the lifestream right now. Maybe she would also be tempering people unwillingly if she would exist in the real plane but since she does not then she may not have it? Or maybe her tempering is just simply giving people the will to feel, think and hear for themselves which is kinda free will.

If we are not tempered, is it really the Echo that protects us? Of course, it might be that the Echo can be overpowered of by extremely powerful primal, but what if it is something we have not heard about yet?

On the other hand, if it is the Echo, will it protect us from Zodiark?