Hello, everyone. I will apologize in advance for al grammar that will follow, because it's not my native language. And there's big runt. To the topic then.
I am forever-tank-main. In every game I've ever played I played the tanky characters. it's in my blood and nature, I'm even looking like a tank IRL. When I've started to play this game I chose my 1st job to be gladiator, never doubted and when I leveled up enough to unlock the paladin I was SO glad that I've even danced a bit in my apartment (don't judge me). The most enjoyable thing I found in the Realm Reborn's PLD was not just his tankyness but his utility. Sometimes clumsy, but yet full of defence utility to the party. It was an UTILITY tank that sole purpose was to defend others and mitigate the damage in oposite of WAR who was the big mean bulky machine, who lived trough the fights on sheer HP and vampiric atacks. Thos days were FUN! We had 2 different tanks with 2 ABSOLUTELY different playstyles. Not anymore. If you look closely to the skillset of any tank in the game now, you will see no deep differences: AOE rotation, single-target rotation, some form of mitigation on low and long CD, invulnerability and some form of gauge that you fill to execute actions. Blend. Similiar. Boring. NOT FUN. No job differentiation. Jobs lost their identity and you know what job they all look like now? WARRIOR. We now have axe warrior, sword and shield warrior, greatsword warrior and the gunblade warrior. All looks and PLAYS the same. It's not fun, SE. You should change that. You NEED to change that. Give us back our tanks identityes. The Shadowbringers are the best game in therms of scenario, but it's the worst in job changes IMO.
There is a lot of great propositions on this forum how to make tank jobs better, how to fill them with identity. Hells, even I wrote about Living Dead and how to actualy make it FEEL Dark Knight-ish and more reliable. But those are not the topic now. Today's about how to make paladin be a paladin.
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08-14-2019, 06:03 PMRakshaziThe Paladin job is the paladin only in name now. Pure salt and sadness.
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08-14-2019, 06:03 PMRakshazi
1st of all you should look at his concept and what we have now. The tank with SHIELD (in oposition to every other tank job) who is skilled in protection with it and with protective magick. PROTECTIVE MAGICK. So the PLD should use his protective (NOT DAMAGING AS WE DO NOW, SE!!!) magick to mitigate or fully absorb damage for party AND use his shield in doing so. Sure enough we have our Passage of Arms, Intervention, Divine Veil and Cover. But is that it? Is that all utility we have now? Minus the Passage of Arms all other actions have their equal in other tank jobs. Cover is barely used anywhere so it's basicaly useless. And instead of further protection utility to the job in the levels 70-80 we have 3 damage and 1 utility (very late level gape closer). 2 of them are spells. WHY? This is not the dps job! We don't need 2 another AOE when we already have AOE 2-skill combo!!! And why we don't use shield anymore as we should've and had before? Like seriously we have our skill based stun, but we actualy very rarely used it because we have an ability stun that will not interrupt our combo chain! The only use of shield now is ocasional block outside of shelltrone and that's it. I remember the glory days of the Realm Reborn when we could use an action with pacification debuff after block. THAT WAS GREAT. That was the feeling that you blocked and countered. That was the feeling we have a shield for protection and counter. No more.
So after that being said we have our problem (at least my problem) with the current PLD job. Job doesn't fully uses his shield and have useless protection actions with too much of atacking spells that even shouldn't be there in the 1st place. Here's what I think SE should do with the PLD:
- remove Holy Circle, Atonement, Confiteor. Since Atonement is binded with Royal Authority replace or rework Royal Authority (at least change it's animation. Like seriously, whoever did that - DON'T DO IT EVER AGAIN. The animation for the skill SUCKS)
- Instead of atacking spells you need to give us the DEFENSIVE UTILITY with spells and shield. For example - return the counterattack action with shield. Something like that - after succesfull block we can use the counteratack action on 10 sec. CD with the potency of 400. Another form of utility is giving PLD ability to debuff enemies. For example - after succesfull block of attack, attacker will recieve +5% more damage for the next 3-5 seconds. This will allow to compensate PLD own damage by amplyfing the party damage. Or give back Flash action! Make us work with our shield, don't make us battlecasters! -
08-14-2019, 06:38 PMRiotSiren
I mean you have two powerful group mitigation tools, the ability to take all of a party member damage for a few seconds, a powerful single target heal and the ability to shield a ally(you even toss a magic shield at them) what more do you want? I do agree I liked the counter system but it was always annoying when you were off tank so I can see why they removed it. What you are asking for would basically force pally into the MT spot which right now they have stated they want all tanks to be viable as both OT and MT.
Pally is considered to be in a very good spot at the moment and is easily one of the most popular tanks, and you are basically asking for them to remove all of the new skills they added to paladin.
Also to each their own but IMO Royal authority is one of the best looking pally skills atm. -
08-14-2019, 07:47 PMConnor
I don’t play Paladin but from what I know they already quite a lot of defensive utility so I’m unsure what the issue is? Clemency can be a really useful tool if used properly and a well-timed heal can essentially act as mitigation. Stuff like Divine Veil and Passage of Arms does have a long cooldown so you can’t really use them whenever you want, but it’d be extremely unbalanced if they were spells I think.
That said, I think giving Paladin some defensive utility spells would be a great idea for new abilities. But unfortunately like Bards with songs or healers with their DPS abilities, this is the kind of thing we won’t see until the next expansion (at the very least) -
08-14-2019, 07:48 PMGreywolfamakir
It looks like you have no idea what are you talking about or you aren't playing Final Fantasy XIV.
You have no idea about how every tank feels unique in terms of gameplay.
PLD is currently one of the most fun Tanks.
Just ignore the original post, is full of nonsense -
08-14-2019, 07:49 PMRakshazi- every tank now have a party wide shield, cover is barely EVER used, Nascent Flash = Intervention. And read better - I've never told you need to change PLD heal. PLD's healing and Passage of Arms are the only paldin-like skills in his set right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by RiotSiren
-In their strife to make all tanks viable they've just copyed warrior. Every tank in the game is the SAME. And there is nothing bad for some jobs being better at something! They have different tools and different aproach! That what makes them DIFFERENT JOBS!!! They do one thing, but with different tools! No wonder, that the blocke with an axe can't deffend better than person with sword and shield!! That's the reason PLD has the shield!! Bring back the Realm Reborn's diversity and fun!
- I'm not asking them removing the skills, I asking to replace the skills, that basicaly copy our physical rotation. We have 2 spells that do AOE damage - Holy Circle and Confiteor. Why??!! PLD is not DPS, it's better to replace them with quality defense utility skills/spells or the counterattack mechanick.
- You realy thinking, that jumping in place and turning around in the air 2 times is good animation for attack? Oh, boy... This animation is POINTLESS, USELESS, AWFULL and not suits for a job with the concept in NOT TURNING IT'S BACK to the enemy and keeping the shield before them! Animation for Royal Authority is waste of resources and a spit in the eye. In comparison: Fast Blade - 2 swift strikes with shield before you. Nice. Riot Blade - Quick stab covering behind the shield. Very nice! Goring Blade - quick turn around and rising slash. Good. Rage of Halone - literaly flury of slashes. Very good! And now... Royal Authority... Slash to the left, jump in the air, turn 2 times in jump and slash to the right... WHAT?!?!? Wtf is that?!? It's DUMB, it's UGLY and POINTLESS! -
08-14-2019, 07:56 PMRakshaziDude, it seems that YOU don't play tanks at all. They are all quite the same. And I've played tanks in this game since the start. They all have the SAME THINGS - gauge to fill for special actions, 1 single target rotation, 1 AOE rotation, gape closer, mitigation fo 20%, 30% damage and invulnerability. This is THE BASE of every tank in this game now. And instead of giving us the DEFENSIVE actions, paladin now have that and AOE spell and single target spell to fill in while your Fight or Flight ability on CD. Why? PLD is not DPS. We need to feel like we defending the party, not to maintain DPS!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Greywolfamakir
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08-14-2019, 08:04 PMSparkthor
Such a hate post... Don't take the following to personnally but what you are saying is way to salty to be take in seriously. A mean who are you to say Royal Authority's animation is "pointless", "useless" and "awfull" ?
Also, why they take away all sort of counter attack from the game ? Simply because counter attacks mean to be attacked, be attacked mean to be MT. Or if you put some counter attack to one job, and to to others, then this job will be in top position for be the MT. However, SE decides all their tanks could be equally performing as OT or as MT. So this request is against the will of dev.
On a last note... To say what all tanks are playing the same make e wonder if we play the same game.
If you don't give any offensive tools for PLD, when only few-one will actually play it. It may sound strange but all the game is about putting the "Dead" debuff on mob. And the only way to achieve is by doing enough dommage to reduce it's HP to 0.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakshazi
More than taking dommage, tank role in ShB is positionning and mitigate boss dommage, is this all what defensive ogcd are made for.
Also, nobody force you to use all dps tools, you could be perfectly tanking by only using fast blade over and over gain. -
08-14-2019, 08:10 PMLambdafish
OP, if you are comparing any job to their ARR varient then you are doing it wrong. ARR was by in large a completely different meta. PLD in ARR had a 3 button combo (boring), and not as much ultility as you might think. Over the many expansions, PLDs identity has only improved, and while I will agree that SB PLD is better the ShB PLD, our identity is very much intact.
The identity that has been added since ARR (and further enhanced in ShB)
- Holy Magic: I hated that ARR PLD was a glorified GLA, I wanted spells, and MP usage, and flash didn't cut it. Now we have Clemency, Holy Spirit, Requiescat, and as of ShB - Holy Circle and Confiteor as well.
- Utility: While yes, some of our defence has been cut, our utility is still there. We have cover, intervention, divine veil and clemency.
As for similarities in playstyle, I'm not sure what other tank has two burst windows one of which turns PLD into a caster job. -
08-14-2019, 08:11 PMRiotSirenDefending the party from what?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rakshazi
I hate saying this sort of thing, but if you want tanks that focus on defense you may wanna look elsewhere. This game simply does not have enough damage floating around in order to support that kind of defensive play style. They would basically have to redesign combat, the game over and nerf healers into the ground to even begin to warrant it. Replacing Pally's skills with defensive abilities would just end up with bored healers, longer instances, and alot of angry pally players.