Hello, and welcome to my Alternative to Weekly Chests thread! Or mayhaps "document" would be a better word. In order to make this less of a wall of text, I have divided each section after “Introduction” into its own text box.
Updates
16/3/2019
- Thread has been re-posted after some careless wording on my part caused it to be deleted due to a misunderstanding.
- This is the fully edited version from prior to its deletion. For those who read the thread before 13/3/2019, please be advised that several significant changes were made to the numbers, and some new sections were added. Therefore, it may be worth reading through again before posting any further responses. Thanks!
Introduction
The weekly loot system of FF14 has been an ongoing issue of debate for as long as raiding has been around. Raid rewards are limited to one roll at loot per instance, but we are not guaranteed to get anything, and we are unable to run with our friends who have already cleared, lest we forfeit one or both of our weekly chests.
This system is in place because it works. As much as we complain about it, there is a greater purpose it serves - namely that it limits our rate of gear progression to ensure that players don’t simply grind everything out within the first week or two of a patch release, then quit until the next content update. Unlocking these restrictions is not an option for Square Enix because without steady player activity, the game will not maintain healthy subscription rates, and will subsequently be less appealing to new players.
However, there are alternatives to simply removing the limitations, and I would like to suggest one here. The goals of this alternative are as follows:
To remove the chest/page system, but maintain progress limitations.
To remove the RNG aspect from raid loot acquisition.
To help revitalize old content and expand the spectrum of active raid encounters.
The Premise
The foundation of this suggestion is the current tome system. In fact, there isn’t that much difference at all from the current tome system. The tome system is so effective because it allows us to work towards gear progression at our own pace, without having to worry about missing reset days. The only thing we need to do is cap tomes, and we will eventually get quality gear. Typically, to achieve BiS, we need to mix raid and tome gear sets, with the odd piece of gear being crafted or attained by other means. However, this same straightforwardness also serves to make acquiring gear feel less than spectacular. The raiders among us may feel that there is a sense of accomplishment in having to complete the top-tier raids to get BiS gear, and I think I would agree with them. Many or most players need a physical goal to work towards, like BiS gear, and this motivates us to complete the most challenging raids.
The goal of this system is to take the straightforwardness of the tome system and merge it with the accomplishment of the raid gear system to create a system that doesn’t rely on RNG, but also doesn’t hand out BiS gear to those who are simply patient enough to get it.
How it Works
The current tome system is largely left as is, however, a new high-level tomestone is added. For this thread’s purposes, I will call them Tomestones of Provenance. Like our current tomestones, Provenance have a weekly cap. However, Provenance are also awarded only once per week from any particular raid or trial that awards them. Provenance are awarded to players regardless of how many players in the party have already completed their weekly run, and any further completions for the week do not provide Provenance, instead providing only the lower tier tomestone (in our current case, Genesis).
Since there are only ever four relevant end-game raid encounters (plus one or two trials) at any time, however, progression may end up slowing down considerably if only these four awarded Provenance with no changes to either the number of tomes awarded, or the purchase price of tome items. On one hand, if completing O9-12S and SeiryuEX capped Provenance for the week, then the system would fail to incentivize players to revisit old content, so there would be little reason to change to a tome-based system. But on the other hand, awarding too few Provenance from the current raid tier would significantly slow down gear progression. In fact, it could be even slower than simply removing chests altogether and forcing players to only gear up via page drops. The key to making this system work is finding a balance between tomes awarded, tomes required, and tomes remaining to cap. An ideal balance should reward players who venture into old content for Provenance, while limiting those who don’t; however, that limitation can’t be so strong that it causes players to feel forced to abandon raid prog in order to not fall behind on gear. Instead of fostering fears of falling behind, we want to offer incentives to get slightly ahead!
Below is the point form of how everything changes. These numbers are subject to change, as they are ultimately what determine the balance of this system. I have tried to offer numbers that I feel are appropriate. However, I am interested to hear your thoughts on the matter.
The Changes
- Chest/page system removed. All raid gear comes from tomes.
- New tome type added: Provenance.
- Provenance tomes are used for top-iLevel BiS gear (currently, i400).
- Provenance tome weekly cap is 600.
- Genesis tomes are used for top-iLevel sub-BiS gear (currently, i390).
- Genesis tome weekly cap remains at 450.
- Current Savage raid tier (Alphascape) awards 60/90/125/125 Provenance per stage (O9/10/11/12s), respectively.
- Current Extreme trial (Seiryu) awards 30 Provenance.
- Old raid tiers from 2.0~4.0 patch cycles award approx. 20 Provenance, when cleared on MinIL.
- Old extreme trials from 2.0~4.0 patch cycles award approx. 10~20 Provenance, when cleared on MinIL.
- Provenance tomes are awarded once weekly for each raid/trial cleared.
- Provenance tome rewards are awarded regardless of what order you clear content in, and regardless of who in the party has already claimed their provenance.
- All miscellaneous rewards do not have a weekly cap.
- Current Normal Raid tier (Alphascape) awards 10/10/15/20 Genesis per stage (O9/10/11/12n), respectively.
- Current Normal trial (Seiryu) awards 15 Genesis.
- Old Savage raid/trial tiers from 2.0~4.0 patch cycles award approx. 10~40 Genesis when cleared with iLevel sync active (variation determined by %level above MinIL).
- Old Normal raid/trial tiers from 2.0~4.0 patch cycles award approx. 5~15 Genesis when cleared with iLevel sync active (variation determined by %level above MinIL).
- All mob dungeons in the game award approx. 15 Genesis when cleared on MinIL, and approx. 5~10 Genesis when cleared with iLevel sync active (variation determined by %level over MinIL).
- Duty Roulette’s Genesis rewards remain the same, resetting daily.
- Unsynced content awards no tomestones.
- Extra note: Tome rewards could potentially change slightly week to week, to encourage players to interact with different content for the best tome rates per week, and/or to rebalance the tome rate to discourage repeatedly grinding the raids that offer the best tome rate for the least effort.
Behind the Numbers
I based my numbers on the effective value of an Alphascape Datalog in tomestones, using the Genesis tome shop prices as a reference, then applied the 4:6:8 ratio of the cost of items in the Datalog Exchange shop to the Provenance rewards from the raids.
Value of a Raid Page in Tomes:
375/4 = 93.25
495/6 = 82.5
825/8 = 103.125
1000/8 = 125
Mean Average Value of a Raid Page = 101 tomes
I assigned Provenance a cap of 600, which is +50% onto the total 400 Provenance we would acquire from completing all four Savage raids in the current tier. Completing the full raid tier weekly for 400 Provenance should provide the same minimum gear progression rates as we already have if we rely solely on Datalogs and do not get any gear from chests. The 600-tome cap leaves players with 200 extra tomes they can get from other sources after completing all four Savage raids. If you want to, this can be thought of as the “compensation” for the removal of the RNG rewards. Though acquiring the bonus tomes takes extra work, it also doesn’t rely on RNG, and should provide gear at roughly the same rate as RNG would. Thirty of these extras can be obtained from running the most recent Extreme trial, leaving 170 tomes as a bonus for players to acquire at their own pace from old content if they want to get ahead. However, given the massive difference between the Provenance rewards of the current tier and old content, progging the newest raids should still prove to be more efficient in the long run. For example, missing out on 250 Provenance one week by failing to clear the top two raids will ultimately pay itself back once a player is able to quickly and easily clear them, opening up time to complete old raids for bonus Provenance after the current raids are cleared for the week. Since grinding all 600 Provenance solely off old content is unrealistic, it is essentially no different from our current system that locks the steady and easy route to raid gear behind consistent weekly clears of the raid tier.
How does this change things?
The biggest change is that gear progression is no longer locked behind the most recent patch. That said, based on player preferences, and the distribution of tomestone rewards, the most recent patch remains, by far, the most effective way to acquire the end-game tomestones.
Completing O9-12S and SeiryuEX nets a player 430/600 Provenance. This leaves 170 to gain via other means throughout the week. With the distribution I suggested, this amounts to 8.5 other raids completed at MinIL, or some mixture of trials and raids. While I personally feel this is an appropriate amount, others may feel it’s a bit too high a hurdle to get through in a week, so it can certainly be adjusted. That said, the objective behind this distribution of tomestones is to revitalize old content.
Since, besides the current raid tier and latest extreme trial, Tomestones of Provenance only come from older content completed on MinIL, this encourages players to continue to actively interact with a larger spectrum of content. Which content players choose to complete is ultimately up to them. However, as a whole, the playerbase is likely to gravitate towards a collective routine to ensure enough players are around to get parties started. As a result, what will likely happen is that a new “train” will start. However, instead of being comprised only of O9-12S, it is now comprised of O9-12S, followed by several older trials and raids. I would expect that the collective decision would be to backtrack through Lv. 70 content, as most players seem to prefer not to play with pre-70 kits. So the train might look something like this:
O9S > O10S > O11S > O12S > SeiryuEX > SuzakuEX > TsukuyomiEX > O5S > O6S > O7S > O8S > ByakkoEX > ShinryuEX > O1S > O2S > O3S > O4S > LakshmiEX > SuzakuEX
Players are still mostly familiar with these fights. For players who completed O9-12S + SeiryuEX, the cap would be reached by O1S. For players who were not able to complete O12S, the cap would be almost reached by the end of the train. Statics, on the other hand, may prefer to tackle other content. Since taking on Alexander (Savage) or Bahamut (Savage)* offers the same rewards as backtracking through old Stormblood content, statics can elect to go through those instead, with no loss to their gear progression rates. This also comes with the added benefit of being able to hop onto the public raid train at any time to catch up on any Provenance they missed with the group.
Looking at such a long raid train, it may seem awfully inconvenient. But there is a benefit to that length - namely that “missing” the train does not set you back as much. Since many players will aim for the bonus 170 tomes after completing the current tier, there will be a steady stream of players backtracking through old raids for the bonus. Even if you arrive late, you can pick up the train at whatever point it is throughout the week, opting to take the “late” train at the end of the week for any that you missed at the start. Lengthening the train also means that players will stay active for longer, rather than completing their four weekly raids with a static immediately, then going elsewhere until the next reset. The removal of the chest system also means that which parties players can join is no longer restricted by who has already completed it, meaning people can join speedruns later to get their late clears, without losing out on chests.
The minor changes to the rate of Genesis acquisition are intended to encourage players to engage more regularly with old Savage trials and raids with iLevel sync active. However, reaching Genesis cap via Duty Roulettes is still likely to be the most common approach.
*Unlike the 3.0 and 4.0 raids, the Normal mode Coils of Bahamut are closer to Savage tier raids, to the point that only Second Coil received an actual Savage mode. Therefore, it could probably be treated differently and award Provenance for MinIL completion on Normal, with bonus Provenance for completing Second Coil (Savage).
Potential Issues
1. The most glaring issue with this approach is the potential for the playerbase to spread itself too thin. A trouble faced by all MMOs is that for every patch they add, the playerbase generally does not grow to accommodate it. Over time, this leads to there being far more content than the playerbase can realistically interact with. Instead, players opt to focus entirely on the most recent patch’s content.
By expanding the content that veteran players interact with on a weekly basis to potentially encompass all old raids and trials, the number of active parties for any particular raid/trial may drop substantially, making it more difficult on average to find a party. How much of an issue this is largely depends on how the playerbase responds the incentives to interact with old content. Will players opt to simply accept a cap of 430 Provenance a week in exchange for only having to run the most recent raid tier? Will they collectively create a new, longer raid train in order to reach the cap? Or will they spread out and start tackling random raids from across the entire content spectrum to reach the cap? While I believe the last option is the least likely, if it were to happen, there would be a major party drought as every player competed to try to cap using their own personal favourite trials and raids. Even in the case of a longer raid train, the number of active parties per raid is going to be reduced somewhat. However, I believe it’s very likely that the train will move as a whole. As players clear (or give up on) raids early in the train, the active raids will change throughout the week, from O9-12S around reset, to O5-8S on days 2-3, and O1-4S around 4-5, with the last two days being something of a catch-up free-for-all.
One other benefit of having a larger raid spectrum is that newer players may be able to join the trains and gain experience with raid culture, while also acting as a buffer against the reduction in the number of parties per raid.
2. Another potential issue is the risk of overworking players. While having players play intensively for one day then quit for a week is never good for the game, many of those players also simply want to enjoy other aspects of the game on their raid downtime, and such players may feel pressured to constantly raid in order to reach cap, given the amount of raids required to do so. Less hardcore players are also likely to be overwhelmed by the number of necessary raids, and will only realistically complete a few of them over the course of the week.
Thankfully, since the tome system is designed to offer a consistent (if slow) way to get gear, it’s possible for less hardcore players (or hardcore players who aren’t in a rush) to acquire full BiS (or near-BiS) gear over a longer period of time. The Genesis tomes also remain the same, and offer similar iLevel gear at roughly the same rate as we have always acquired gear. Ultimately, this change offers a new avenue for midcore or casual players, who may be able to complete the odd savage raid here and there, but who could never clear a fourth tier raid boss like Final Omega, God Kefka, or Neo Exdeath. Over time, they could acquire the raid gear pieces from these bosses, but not being able to clear the bosses themselves would significantly slow down this progress. While acquiring simple pieces of BiS (like belts or accessories) may take marginally longer with this system, players are also able to acquire pieces they would otherwise not have been able to.
Conclusion
Changing to a tome-based system that has a weekly lockout on raid completions maintains the same restrictions on player activity as the the current chest system, but also allows players to choose how they progress, both in terms of which gear they get first, as well as in terms of which content they choose to interact with. Raising the Provenance cap to 600 from the usual 450, and leaving players 200 tomes from the cap after completing the latest raid tier encourages players to expand the active raiding spectrum, revitalizing a large portion of the game’s older content. This is not without risk, as taking this approach may cause the playerbase to spread itself too thin across the massive amount of old content, but the collective playerbase is likely to rectify this issue on its own by developing a routine that most public players follow. The freedom to choose what we complete for our cap gives a great deal of freedom to statics, and may help to bring newer players into the raiding sphere from as early as Lv. 50, giving them excitement and purpose on their road to end-game. Since the Duty Roulettes remain largely unaffected, veteran players will still regularly use these to cap Genesis, and to acquire other tomestones and rewards, while helping new players through instances for the first time.
Overall, this system should hopefully reduce frustration with the current loot system, allow friends to more freely play with each other without fear of a penalty, revitalize at least all Stormblood content, if not earlier content as well, and allow new players to participate in end-game raiding earlier than they may otherwise have been able to.
An Alternative to Weekly Chests
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03-16-2019, 07:43 PMNocturniaUzukiAn Alternative to Weekly Chests
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03-16-2019, 08:20 PMCorbinDallas
Even though I still don't like the idea, I'll throw in a couple comments anyway. I do however appreciate the fact you've taken on board some feedback and made changes, despite how I personally feel.
Minimum item level runs still suck outside of statics, and it makes getting the best current gear irrelevant in terms of easing prior fights. It also massively increases the burden of knowledge on newer raiders who may want to join statics but would be expected to know previous tiers at minimum item level, which is no mean feat.
Nowhere in your post do you mention the capped tome upgrade items such as twines/coats/dips, nor the coffer and mount from the final fight of a tier. How would these be aquired in your new system?
Finally, and this is more of a personal gripe. Why insist on pushing players back into older and irrelevant content? Not everything needs to have an active playerbase. If the rewards are worth it people will continue to do it, if not, then leave it to die. The proof lies in things like the pony farms for 2.x primals which still happen. Wondrous Tails still has active participants. Relic weapons. Roulettes.
If content is to die, then let it, it has served it's purpose at the end of the day, and it's only natural to happen in a game such as this where vertical progression is the end all be all.
Let it go. -
03-16-2019, 10:24 PMNocturniaUzukiAnd I appreciate that you're giving it fair, well-structured criticism.Quote:
Originally Posted by CorbinDallas
In response to your points...
I think what you worry about with a burden on newer raiders is justified, but I don't think it would be quite as big an issue as you might be thinking. As you mentioned, knowing and being able to clear old fights on MinIL is no mean feat. This is why I said in the main post that capping Provenance without getting the 430 tomes from the latest raid tier + trial is unrealistic. While I think that some hardcore statics might start demanding knowledge of all those Min IL raids, even at the hardcore level, it's a lot to demand. I feel that any reasonable person would recruit players based solely on their playing skill, as proven by which of the latest tier's raids they have cleared, If someone can clear O12S, they are likely of a high enough caliber to also clear the MinIL content. Statics bringing on board such players would have to demonstrate a level of patience while their new recruits learn any fights which the static does weekly that the recruit doesn't already know. Given that old MinIL content is, on average, harder than the current raid tier (due to having 10-40 iLevels over the minimum), it stands to reason that in most cases, players who can't clear the full current raid tier aren't going to be doing much of the older stuff. The priority remains on progging the current tier until they can clear all of it. A few statics that can only clear part of the tier may start doing some of the old extremes or lower turns of old raid tiers. Ultimately, I think that the reality will win out; players can only be as restrictive as is realistic. Once it gets to the point that nobody joins their statics out of lack of knowledge, they will have to change their standards to allow players who aren't already masters of their particular preferences, just like hiring employees is in the real world.
As for the upgrade items, this depends somewhat. There are two ways this could be implemented. One way would be to have the upgrades in the shop. They would simply cost tomes equal to the pages they originally cost. So 4-page upgrades would cost 375 Provenance, etc. Alternatively, the upgrade system could be ditched entirely, and the shop would simply offer all of the BiS gear for each class. But I suspect this would be largely unpopular. The mounts and such are considered "miscellaneous rewards" and, as mentioned under "The Changes", there would be no change here. When I say get rid of the chest system, I mean specifically for gear. There would still be a chest at the end, which would have any miscellaneous rewards. In fact, for the sake of the joy of opening a chest, having us obtain the tomes by opening the chest might be a nice little touch as well (though obviously, it's not rolled on and we would just get it immediately).
There's nothing much I can say about your personal gripe, of course. That's just your preference, and I'm not likely to change your mind. I will at least say this, though. MMO playerbases are, by-in-large, focused on material rewards. This is why the only way to resurrect old content properly is to gate highly-desirable end-game rewards behind said content. The mount farms and WT runs do not revive old content. The content is simply facerolled for the rewards because material-focused players will always take the easiest road to their rewards. That's just logical for them. However, there are other players who are not focused on material rewards, who simply want to do the content for its own sake. Of course, you can claim, maybe even rightly, that that portion of the playerbase is too small to care about. However, it's not just those players. There are many material-focused players who do enjoy old content as well. It's just that when forced to choose between their material goals and their interest in old content, they naturally choose their material goals. Putting some of those material goals back into old content will make more than just the "niche" oldies playerbase happy. It will make all of those players who want a reason (i.e. material reward) to go back to old content happy as well. My goal is to achieve that without alienating the portion of the playerbase that only has interest in the latest content; hence the balancing act. It can't be too frustrating for those players. But if it isn't restrictive enough, it won't achieve anything.