A few thoughts about the Federation

EDIT: I meant Confederacy, not Federation lol

While I enjoyed the story of Stormblood in general, there is a thing that irks me a bit. When we go to Kugane and talk about crossing the Ruby Sea, we are told about the Confederacy, a group of pirates/bandits that tell any ship crossing their waters to pay them a certain price so that they have their safety "garanteed". As in: "pay us, or we'll take your stuff".

Then, when we go there, there's a part where an imperial boat tries to cross and we see the Confederacy asking them to pay the Ruby Tithe. The imperial soldier basically tells them to f*ck off, saying that, if the Federation tries anything against them, the Empire will crush them. The way the scene plays, it's almost like we're supposed to sympathise with the Confederacy. They even talk about how the Empire is ruining their way of life at some point, if I recall correctly.

Now, the Empire has done some really bad stuff, but in this case, I think they're absolutely right in standing up to bandits. These guys are pirates that threathen people who cross the sea into paying their price. Now, I don't have a problem with working together with pirates to destroy the Empire (especially the Confederacy, since it's clear that, as pirates go, they're not the worst), because they have their own interest in ending the imperial influence in that region, but I really don't feel sorry for them.

If the waters were oficially recognized as their territory, then they would have every right to ask people to pay them to cross, but if that were the case, they wouldn't really be pirates, would they?

I'm not a lore expert, but is there anything more to this that I'm not taking into account? Or was it just me that saw that scene as trying to make us feel sorry for the Confederacy?

They're initially pitched as pirates, but I think over time we're supposed to come to see the Confederacy as a pseudo-nation. The Ruby Sea is their territory and the tithe is their form of taxes, if you refuse to pay your taxes they come and take your stuff.
As a tax it makes sense to be honest, the confederacy is a "nation" without much land to speak of, trying to raise traditional taxes would be pretty near pointless.

The thing that makes me think is, how much did the Ruby tithe really generate? They sit between Othard and Hingashi, but Hingashi was totally closed until recently.
Where were so many people going to and from that would make occupying and taxing that bit of sea profitable?

I guess maybe it just wasn't that profitable, the area was occupied more for the convenience of the small islands dotted everywhere than for the revenue possibilities, would explain the pretty sorry state of their forces.

Lol Confederacy, I messed up their name.

Yeah, that's how I try to look at it, but they still talk about themselves as bandits when Hien goes to talk to them. They say something like "should the leader of Doma be associating himself with bandits?" or something to that effect. That makes me think that the Confederacy's claim to the Ruby Sea is not something that official, so paying taxes to them wouldn't be fair (but, to be fair, they took Onokoro relatively fairly, since apparently no one wanted to be there, because of superstition associated with Heaven-on-High).

Now, maybe their methods were never that harsh for pirates, so Hingashi and Othard allowed it to continue, maybe even to stop/control other types of sea-related criminal activity, but that's me speculating.

About how they would make their money, I guess they can still go after hingan or othardian ships traveling along their own coasts. And, well, it's not like they have much anyway, so I would agree that maybe they just went there for convenience or other reason more than for profit.

The Confederacy effectively controls the Ruby Sea. That really makes it their territory. It is just that other nations don't recognise them as a legitimate governing body. In reality the Confederacy acts like one in many ways even that don't have that legitimacy. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Hein didn't look to recognising their legitimacy. An official relation with them would be easier to manage.

I think the main reason they are shunned is because of their origins and because the territory wasn't held by them in the past and having to pay for access to a territory when one wasn't there before would be something other nations and groups wouldn't like. Remember Limsa probably had a very similar origin and early one probably wasn't greatly recognised as a more than a den of criminals (which wasn't entirely wrong).

There is an irony in prosperity leading to organisations becoming more civilised as they seek to grow further. In the quests in the Ruby Sea we see them engaging in trade and negotiating mutually beneficial deals with both merchants and the local fishing village. They also keep any other groups from messing with traders passing through which ironically makes the area safer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Belhi

The Confederacy effectively controls the Ruby Sea. That really makes it their territory. It is just that other nations don't recognise them as a legitimate governing body. In reality the Confederacy acts like one in many ways even that don't have that legitimacy. Personally I wouldn't be surprised if Hein didn't look to recognising their legitimacy. An official relation with them would be easier to manage.

I think the main reason they are shunned is because of their origins and because the territory wasn't held by them in the past and having to pay for access to a territory when one wasn't there before would be something other nations and groups wouldn't like. Remember Limsa probably had a very similar origin and early one probably wasn't greatly recognised as a more than a den of criminals (which wasn't entirely wrong).

There is an irony in prosperity leading to organisations becoming more civilised as they seek to grow further. In the quests in the Ruby Sea we see them engaging in trade and negotiating mutually beneficial deals with both merchants and the local fishing village.

---

Yeah, I think it would make sense for Hien to recognize their legitimacy, since they were one of major forces in helping Domans taking back their land (with some confederates beings Domans themselves). Because yes, it's clear that the Confederacy acts like a small nation of sorts, even engaging in trade with merchants from Hingashi and the locals. It's just a matter of how other nations react to their actions.

But before the events of Stormblood, if Hingashi and Othard realized that this group of pirates that they don't acknowledge as a nation is stealing from their ships if they don't pay them, it would make sense to fight back. Maybe it was to avoid bloodshed (since it's clear the condeferates have a decent fleet) and it was just easier if they just payed them what they wanted, even if they don't recognize them as a legitimate nation.

Maybe I can sympathise with them a little more like that, but maybe SE should have expanded a little bit on their society before that scene with the Empire, because up until that point the idea about them that was pitched was that they were just a bunch a thugs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TheHeavenAbyss

Yeah, I think it would make sense for Hien to recognize their legitimacy, since they were one of major forces in helping Domans taking back their land (with some confederates beings Domans themselves). Because yes, it's clear that the Confederacy acts like a small nation of sorts, even enganing in trade with merchants from Kugane and the locals. It's just a matter of how other nations react to their actions.

But before the events of Stormblood, if Kugane and Othard realized that this group of pirates that they don't acknowledge as a nation is stealing from their ships if they don't pay them, it would make sense to fight back. Maybe it was to avoid bloodshed (since it's clear the condeferates have a decent fleet) and it was just easier if they just payed them what they wanted, even if they don't recognize them as a legitimate nation.

Maybe I can sympathise with them a little more like that, but maybe they should have expanded a little bit on their society before that scene with the Empire, because up until that point the idea about them that was pitched was that they were just a bunch a thugs.

---

They do expand on them a lot more in the following quests. The most significant thing with the Confederacy is it has rules it sticks to and honors. If you pay the Ruby Tithe your safe. They keep their word. I suspect that is half the reason they have been tolerated, on top of the fact they pretty much keep other pirate groups from moving into the area. In reality most nations would have started out as a group settling down or taking over an area and having the military strength to enforce that claim. There is a pretty hazy line between what constitutes a nation and a group of settled vagabonds/mercenaries. The fact that they have their own laws effectively makes them in one way no longer lawless.

Yeah, I know. I was saying it should have been expanded maybe before that scene with the Empire (and I don't think they expand that much on the nuances of whether or not there is legitimacy to what they do, which was my initial problem). But yeah, I agree that there's a hazy line with what constitutes a nation, it's just that they might also come across as a mafia (although one could say that there's also a thin line between that and a nation). Mafias also usually talk about their own rules and honors. I guess in the end it's just a matter of what is fair to the people living in their territory (which, in this case, would be the Raen and the Kojin, if underwater counts).

Lots of great discussion here! One other thing that I might want to mention related is the fact that the Confederacy has claimed control of the Ruby Sea "Since Antiquity." In essence, they're more of a fact of life to the locals than any sort of invading force or unexpected group of pirates. They supposedly have a history lasting centuries. Indeed, they're practically considered a sovereign nation by the locals, even if the Encyclopedia Eorzea II mentions in passing a few failed attempts to drive them out centuries ago. They also have rather codified rules and the like, and I think that there are some intentional similarities to the past of Limsa Lominsa. If they got a strong leader like Merlwyb they could realistically organize in a similar manner.They also have clear relations to outside groups, such as helping out the villagers of Isari and other coastal towns, or trading directly with outsiders and the Kojin. The fact that Doma sought to include them in their Defensive Alliance speaks a lot to their status and influence. The idea of Hien or others electing to simply legitimize them as a Sovereign nation would not be out of course honestly, and would be interesting to see even if the game is probably more or less 'done' with Doman politics for the moment.
The Confederacy even has *Heaven on High Spoilers* relations to the Okinishu (apologies on the name, away from my Lorebook) a secretive but highly important group of scholars and crafters in the Far East. They are far more than 'mere' pirates, and the fact that the Garleans treat them as such is shown to be a sign of their arrogance and ignorance.

As to how they made money, Hingashi may be largely cut off from the outside world, but there is still (used to be) a fairly large amount of trade in the region. The trade funnel between the Far East and Eorzea/other regions is referenced in many places, including being named as a great source of wealth for Dalmasca, Hingashi/Kugane, and Doma. The paper created in Doma, for example, is mentioned as a famous export for the region, and beloved in farther off places such as Radz-at-Han and even parts of Eorzea. The presence of large Eorzean companies like the East Aldenard Trading Company and the like is further evidence of this trade. However, this trade has been disrupted in recent years by Garlean intervention, something that has ruined many a fortune. The idea of the Garlean Empire ruining traditional ways of life and livelihood is a consistent theme throughout Stormblood. The destroyed economies and disruption of Doma's trade, Ala Ghanna's stonecutting, and Ala Ghiri's industry serve as fine examples. It sort of makes things clear that despite their advanced technology, their industrialization does little to raise the general standard of living, and only really helps themselves. In the Lorebook they specifically talk about how while the sections of Ala Migho given over to Garlean Colonizers benefited from their advanced technology, they kept it away from the locals. It creates a purposeful irony and hypocrisy for an Empire supposedly dedicated to 'progress.' By spurning the Confederacy and aiding groups like the Red Kojin, the Empire's rule ironically made the Ruby Sea more dangerous than it used to be. Thus, 'siding' with the Confederacy isn't really as bad of an idea as it sounds!

I hope that some of what I've written helps!

EDIT: Cleaned up some writing. That's what I get for writing it in scattered fashion at work.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CaesarCV

I hope that some of what I've written helps!

---

Thanks, that's very interesting! I didn't know about the Confederacy controling the Ruby Sea since antiquity (I don't remember if they say it in game, maybe I missed it). I guess usually the line between a group of vagabonds who claim control over a region and an actual nation is crossed, in a way, after a long time has passed, so I'd say that's an important element to consider in this issue. It appears that the Hingans and Othardians trading through the sea and paying the Ruby Tithe to the Confederacy was a business model that was probably well established for a long time already, until the Garlean Empire came and disrupted all that, even giving power to actual thugs (the Red Kojin).

The Confederacy was viewed as all but the legitimate rulers of the Ruby Sea until Yotsuyu came along. She hates Domans and there are a lot of Domans (or people of Doman decent) in the Confederacy. So Yotsuyu basically says the Confederacy is a illegitimate government and that paying the tithe (trade taxes) is illegal as was trading with them. This gutted the Confederacy's finances and all but made them out to be nothing by pirates to any of the Garlean-held or neutral territories. The Confederacy being declared "common pirates" is an extension of Yotsuyu's hatred of everything Doman.

Kugane actually liked that the Confederacy was declared illegitimate as that meant better profit margins for them if they didn't have to pay the Ruby Tithe. So they made it illegal for the Confederacy to come to Kugane. This has the effect of making Ruby Sea goods very rare and valuable in Kugane. It also meant that Kugane stayed in the Garlean's good graces and maintained their neutral status.

Other people (specificly the East Aldenard Trading Company) realized this would be an amazing business opportunity. The Garleans were recently thrown out of Doma and the Ruby Sea and the Confederacy is essentially trading partners with both Doma and the Kojin and even Sui-no-Sato. They know where to get luxury goods found nowhere else. And Kugane is being idiotic and caving to the Garleans. So you've now got an Eorzean trading company doing business with the Confederacy to sell the Confederacy's goods in Kugane. So everyone but Kugane is making money. It used to be the other way 'round with Kugane selling Confederacy goods to the rest of the world.