Paladin is now the worst dps performing tank job.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/14#class=Tanks - dungeons
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/16#class=Tanks Delta scape
Different on Sigma
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/20...nks&dataset=90

Trials extreme
https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15#class=Tanks

The difference is not huge, but it is.

Wasnt PLD nerfed a bit too much? Shield swipe cut by 50 potency and holy spirit by 20 made it.
I know he has the utility, but that doesnt change the fact WAR has similar level of utility but also has way higher dps than the rest of the two.

I think 3rd place by a little bit is where it belongs on the dps scale since it's 1st place in utility. War utility is ok but Pld is amazing in that area. Still wouldn't hurt to increase Drk a little in dps and/or utility then we'll be about perfect all around.

Let's look at this data in perspective:

The people pushing jobs to their limits? They're probably mostly in Sigmascape now. The data is also skewed outside of it due to low parse records: look at the totals on Deltascape, for instance, ~1200 between all of them while Sigmascape has ~20,000. Dungeons come in at ~2,000, and the only one that comes close is Trials (Extreme) with 39,000, but that's also taking into account people uploading for Lakshmi, Susano, and Shinryu, which could be skewing the results.

This may just be me, but I would consider the sigmascape data the only entirely relevant data here, with https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...anks&boss=1040 (specifically Byakko) as another relevant point to look at: and when you look at Byakko, PLD is only 11dps behind DRK, and brings well more than 11dps worth of utility along with them.

I'm not seeing it, on most percentiles on every boss in Sigmascape except Guardian, and Byakko, Paladin remains a decent amount ahead of Dark Knight.

On Byakko in particular, since I off tank it so bloody much I can see why Paladin would be drastically lower, Paladin is possibly most effective as off tank in that fight and the off tank has large gaps of time where they lag behind in damage or otherwise don't need to be doing any damage whatsoever. There's no advantage to hurting the second tiger add, so many off tanks just stay in tank stance until they can re-engage Byakko. Perhaps Paladin can use Holy Spirit from a distance, but this still may be contributing to their lower Byakko parse overall.

Edit: I forgot, it's a weird fight for movement and holy spirit timing that always seems to coincide with bullet hell dodging. That too.

Guardian, I have no idea. Maybe someone else can elucidate that point.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Let's look at this data in perspective:

The people pushing jobs to their limits? They're probably mostly in Sigmascape now. The data is also skewed outside of it due to low parse records: look at the totals on Deltascape, for instance, ~1200 between all of them while Sigmascape has ~20,000. Dungeons come in at ~2,000, and the only one that comes close is Trials (Extreme) with 39,000, but that's also taking into account people uploading for Lakshmi, Susano, and Shinryu, which could be skewing the results.

This may just be me, but I would consider the sigmascape data the only entirely relevant data here, with https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/15...anks&boss=1040 (specifically Byakko) as another relevant point to look at: and when you look at Byakko, PLD is only 11dps behind DRK, and brings well more than 11dps worth of utility along with them.

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Why lakshimi susano and shinryu are skewing the results?
All of these trials on extreme are not synced and 70 lvl, i dont get it.

Paladin on Sigma is showing superiority only in v1 and v2, the other two are similar to DRK.
Paladin remains inferior to DRK on all 4 extreme trials by significant amount 100-200 dps.

No one cares about parses for anything outside Savage. In fact, let's look at the DPS jobs.

https://www.fflogs.com/statistics/16#

Black Mage may have been weak before its buffs came in 4.2, but it was never the second lowest DPS. Only a handful of raiders bother uploading for EX Primals; virtually none upload parses for anything else. What you're seeing is randoms with very little concern for optimization. Even good players tend to slack off on everything that isn't Savage because, well, it's easy content.

To further illustrate how unreliable it is to make sweeping judgements on all class balance due to random percentiles on FFLogs, look at the amount of Dark Knight recordings for all of Sigmascape savage total. As of right now, it's 29466 Paladin, 28512 Warrior, 10031 Dark Knight. The other tanks have almost 3x more usage on Dark Knight each. Why is this relevant? Well, when there are so many more results to draw from, possibly from lesser geared or rough clears among various percentiles, the Paladin (especially Paladin and its reputation as the "safe" main tank for progression) and Warrior parses might look lower than their relative potential within a percentile since they have more of a range, while Dark Knights may look higher because the ones who really excelled in their groups count for more with 1/3rd the representation.

So, the closer to maximum percentile, the more accurate the class balance should look, yet this too isn't a great metric because it only accounts for pure potential and isn't really indicative of a real experience on the class, maximum parses usually rely on pre-disposed parties feeding them Balance cards, Dragon Sight, etc. Still, one could reliably claim that the maximum potential of Dark Knight is less than Paladin or Warrior for this reason.

The same can be said about the DPS parses, really. Dragoon, Bard, and Ninja all happen to be fairly low compared to the other classes, but combined make up 70,444 of the total DPS parses. The other classes combined only make up 65,724. This means that of the 9 DPS classes, just 3 of them have more than 50% of the usage among FFlogs uploaders. Again, this has repercussions in the analysis of the data. How many of these runs were rough but finishable, what were their relative item levels across percentiles, for the less common DPS jobs is it a factor that being less popular means they had to perform really well on average just to clear/earn a spot in their team, et cetera et cetera. Max parses again, tell a slightly more stable but very unrealistic in practice story.

All this, just for me to really attempt to point out that there's a lot more going on within class balance than to look at parses on some percentile on a fight and draw generalized conclusions.

Forgive the double post, but I forgot about Stone Sky Sea, which exists as one facet of gauging class balance, at least from developer intention. It's a painful truth that all throughout 4.0~4.1, Dark Knight's dummy was by far the weakest, implying even the developers assumed it would be doing less damage than the other tanks, with Paladin's dummy being somewhere in the middle.
(Minor edit: During Deltascape, Paladin was far closer to Warrior, while Dark Knight tended to trail some 30k behind)

Now however, the Dark Knight and Paladin dummies for all of Sigmascape Savage and Byakko are roughly...~1000 HP apart. This is a 1000 HP difference when Warrior's dummy tends to be roughly 60,000 more HP than both at any time, dummies totaling over 600,000 HP on average. Taking these dummy HP amounts as gospel is also problematic, but if one were to consider developer intention to be the closest form of accuracy on how the classes should be performing, then...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

PLD is only 11dps behind DRK

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...is accurate from the Stone, Sky, Sea point of view.
(My last edit, I swear: I just did the Byakko dummy and did about 40 DPS higher on Paladin than Dark Knight at the same item level, doing to my knowledge the optimal rotations perfectly. There's variance of course, but the dummies don't seem to be taking into account Shield Swipe at all, which would indeed push Paladin quite a bit higher than Dark Knight in actual fights, not to mention the burst nature of Holy Spirit.)

Prey in v7s says hello. Cover is a game changer.
Hallowed is great in every fight.

Personally I feel pld should be the weakest dps from its amazing defensive utility.

The tank I find the most disadvantaged is still drk.

Regardless DRK is still at the biggest disadvantage in terms of mitigation and utility.