Ivalice and Hydaelyn revisited (Patch 4.1 spoilers)

I previously made mention to this theory and you can find my posts and the deliberation here:

Is Hydaelyn an alternate Universe of Ivalice?

So essentially with the release of this new patch we not only confirmed the location and existence of Dalmasca & Lesalia, but we've confirmed that Bangaa and Seeq exist in Hydaelyn with their FFXII art style. Even more implicating for Ivalice and Hydaelyn being reflections of each other is the existence of Ba'gamnan and his siblings. Granted, the sorry state of Dalmasca and the fact that the Garlean invasion succeeded in destroying Rabanastre means that the events of FFXII did not come to pass in this reflection, but that doesn't mean that characters unrelated to that campaign couldn't have survived.

It makes me super ready for the upcoming patches since we should be able to ascertain more about the state of Hydaelyn and it's uncanny association with Ivalice.

Hate to be a mood killer, but I personally don't think that we should really read too much into it. FFXIV is a game that takes inspiration from many different Final Fantasy games, and pulls in ideas, concepts, and even races and locations from many of them. We have a game where Krile can meet Matoya, and where even something as specific as the Crystal Tower storyline can exist alongside the Prima Vista. Races and primals from other games can definitely exist alongside the Seeq and Bangaa without necessarily meaning that Eorzea is some sort of reflection of Ivalice. After all, while Rabanastre exists in this game, it's not necessarily the same one as its FFXII counterpart. Just because Doma exists in FFXIV and in FFVI (in Japan Hien's childhood name was even the Japanese equivalent for Cyan) that doesn't mean that this world is some alternate reflection of FFVI's. That being said, I am very much looking forward to comparing and contrasting the different versions of these characters, concepts, and ideas between FFXIV and their original incarnations. It's part of the fun!

we are dealing with a multiverse when talking about FF... if we compare our own real world and the multiverse there is 100% chance there is a universe where Mongolia is the "greatest nation on earth" in 2017... or where Paganism and witchcraft are the main religions... just because things may be the same in some aspects or be named the same and have a great number of similarities doesnt mean they are actually the same... just as a FF18 could be another online game with references to 14 but not the same world at all...

So here is my question. Why would the ruins of lesalia be underneath rabanastre when the state of Dalmasca (and the rest of FF12) occured many millienia before lesalia was in existance? See the general Ivalice timeline here: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ivalice

This to me (if this isn't just another messed up dimension or reflection but actually us traveling to ivalice) is a pretty big lore flaw.

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Originally Posted by CaesarCV

that doesn't mean that this world is some alternate reflection of FFVI's

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It kinda is though, have you seen the garlean empire? A better example would be the gold saucer or Costa del sol

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Originally Posted by Lambdafish

It kinda is though, have you seen the garlean empire? A better example would be the gold saucer or Costa del sol

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Well costa del sol and gold saucer are from ff7 not 6... the gold saucer we have was created by godbert Mandeville vs the gold saucer from 7 created by dio... it's equally if not more probable that the entire world of hydalyn is contained within the dream of a final fantasy super fan who's asleep in front of their game system than it is a reflection ...

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Originally Posted by Xenohart

So here is my question. Why would the ruins of lesalia be underneath rabanastre when the state of Dalmasca (and the rest of FF12) occured many millienia before lesalia was in existance? See the general Ivalice timeline here: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ivalice

This to me (if this isn't just another messed up dimension or reflection but actually us traveling to ivalice) is a pretty big lore flaw.

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The second Calamity forced everyone underground due to extended volcanic activity. It's possible that Rabanastre was founded and the events of XII took place, then the second Calamity came, forcing Lesalia to be founded, then Rabanastre was taken back some time in the eras since, causing Lesalia to be forgotten again.

I hope it's more than a simple and shorter retelling of FFT and cie.

It's all a play. A big play indeed. The Seeq and Bangaas are just costumes. Ramza, Alma, etc. are all actors.
and the gun at the end, a blank, obviously.

The Prima Vista gave me a slight "Stanley Parable" feel, with the theater(game) props being created (like the Bahamut head)
Next or last raid, maybe there will be some problems with the play : wrong decor, wrong prop, we start wandering behind the scene, etc.

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Originally Posted by Xenohart

So here is my question. Why would the ruins of lesalia be underneath rabanastre when the state of Dalmasca (and the rest of FF12) occured many millienia before lesalia was in existance? See the general Ivalice timeline here: http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Ivalice

This to me (if this isn't just another messed up dimension or reflection but actually us traveling to ivalice) is a pretty big lore flaw.

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I was trying to figure that out myself. I think it all comes down to the authorship question - what's the true Ivalice, basically - is Ivalice everything that SE has designated an Ivalice Alliance game or only the works set in Ivalice that Yasumi Matsuno personally created?

If it's the former this is a complete mess. If it's the latter then most of the time-line discrepancies can be hand-waved by blaming the local extinctions and ping-ponging technology levels on Hydaelyn's tendency to have devestating, civilisation-crumbling cataclysms every couple of thousand years or so.

It doesn't feel like Ivalice as a whole was used as canon for the story. Ba'Gamnan can't exist in Ivalice chronologically after Ramza Beoulve. Ba'Gamnan was a bangaa from the Golden Age of Ivalice, and Ramza Beoulve exists in the Ivalice that takes place 1,200 years after the Golden Age represented in XII. Lesalia was never depicted in FFT as being an underground citadel either, and its construction would have been after Rabanastre's founding or in a different place entirely. I can get behind the idea of it being in the same area even if the maps look different, since Ivalice is said to have had its own calamity or catastrophe that highly changed the land and the races that live there. Still, it doesn't add up from the Ivalice perspective.

I'm hoping for the best from this as I'm a big fan of both Ivalice and Hydaelyn and their respective stories, but simply marrying them in a way and handwaving away the details won't fit right with me. But then we get to Argath Thadalfus and he directly namedrops the Beoulve line, once more showing his resentment to Ramza and Delita after his death and eventual awakening as a Lucavi thrall (as seen in WotL). This is great stuff, but when I think about how they could represent Ivalice as a whole in Hydaelyn, I am left feeling uneasy. Ivalice is far more than just FFT- there's Rabanastre of course, but the races that live in Rabanastre are far more plentiful than Seeqs and Bangaa. There are "high" moogles, viera, and nu'mou of course, but further than that there are also plenty of other races in the Ivalice lore like the Gria, Baknamy/Goblins, Garif, Aegyl... The development team couldn't hope to possibly represent all of these races on Hydaelyn as well from a cost standpoint. Hell, that would also detract from Hydaelyn as a whole because it would essentially be Ivalice taking over an already established world that has become much its own despite taking influence from other FFs.

I could understand it being represented as a small window into Ivalice, something like Dalmasca existing through timetravel shenanigans or shards of Hydaelyn or something, I don't know... but there's no way that the original Ivalice, as a whole, could possibly be situated all on Othard. It wouldn't make a lick of sense. I hate that I have to wait six months now to see the next chapter so I can try to make anymore sense of this.