Lack of enthrallment in SB (spoilers?)

So, in 2.x and 3.x the fact that Primals would enthrall those around them was a big deal. That is, after all, why you The Warrior of Light, are special -- you have the Echo and therefore do not succumb to their siren's calls. However, in 4.x, all mention, as far as I can see, has been removed. Even Laksmir, who DOES enchant her followers doesn't do so through the brute force we saw previously, but rather entraps them in a beautiful waking dream. A dream which the player must ward off through special means, not passively through possession of the Echo.

Furthermore, I am now going back and finishing up the SMN's job quest for SB, having just completed Coils (in case they get referenced). There are now non-echo possessing (presumably at least) squads fighting Primals?!

Is Square messing up their own lore, or am I missing something?

Lakshmi's "beautiful dream" is basically just another name for "tempering." Not as big a deal is made about it this time because we already know the deal with primals/ tempering/ the echo (thus no exposition is needed), but the characters still refer to it when they leave you to fight alone because of its possible influence.

Tempering is rarely done with "brute force", the beast tribes summon and submit to their gods willingly.

People without the Echo have been fighting primals long before we showed up, the folks we meet in the Summoner quests were just lucky enough to avoid getting their brains fried by a fake god.

Don't quite recall susano, but Lakshmi clearly "tempers" the ananta.

If you see the small cutscene before the fight with her you notice her casting some sort of spell on them, and them becoming entranced - I think her influence however is a bit more subtle than, for example, Ifrit's. The ananta seem still able to reason after the fight, but I don't really believe they're no longer under her influence. Remember that in MSQ it was the WoL that fought the primals, scions kind of just had to step back and watch and wave for moral support - presumably because yes, they'd be tempered otherwise.

As for the SMN questine I haven't seen it, do the NPCs actually fight the primals or prevent their summoning?

Susano (be he a true primal or something else) values freedom so wouldn't temper the kojin.... wild and pure and forever free!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

.. The ananta seem still able to reason after the fight, but I don't really believe they're no longer under her influence...

---

I can just speculate, but perhaps tempering is never permanent by definition in the first place. What if tempering is just the act of messing with someone's emotions and memories for a certain period of time. After a primal is defeated, they have no direct influence anymore, but whatever changes they did to their memories stay.
Ifrit: just completely delete the past, burn it away. Results are permanent, as after they're released, they'd not remember who they were.
Lakshmi: create a dream, feel happy, unlike your past. So after you defeat lakshmi, she has left a memory of the dream, which they'd remember as the happiest moments of their lives, and the WoL being the one to end it, putting them back to misery. However, they do remember what it was like before, and thus still remember who they are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Spiroglyph

If you see the small cutscene before the fight with her you notice her casting some sort of spell on them, and them becoming entranced - I think her influence however is a bit more subtle than, for example, Ifrit's. The ananta seem still able to reason after the fight, but I don't really believe they're no longer under her influence.

---

I'd agree that this would likely be tempering for any other primal, but considering Lakshmi's in-fight mechanics though, it's more likely to be her granting them vril. It has the same color and spherical shape as the icon, plus the adds at the start of the fight gain the vril buff on pull. So when it looks like they're becoming enthralled, they're really just being empowered, since that's kinda what vril does for the player (empowers your defenses against certain attacks).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Vulcwen

I can just speculate, but perhaps tempering is never permanent by definition in the first place. What if tempering is just the act of messing with someone's emotions and memories for a certain period of time. After a primal is defeated, they have no direct influence anymore, but whatever changes they did to their memories stay.

---

If you do the Amaal'ja beastribe quest you find a Miqo'te who had been 'tempered'. However it seems she was just driven crazy and instead of killing her, they let her go back to live with her old tribe to 'recover'. So maybe being tempered isn't permanent but it more than likely screws someone up mentally.

It was clear even early on in ARR's storyline that not all Primals actively temper their followers, in fact, the only ones actually shown to be zealous about tempering is Ifrit, and to a lesser extent Leviathan. Garuda only tried to temper the player as a last resort after were had already beat her down (which went about as well as you would expect), and she did not even try to do it on Gaius when he showed up and had Ultima Weapon snack on her).

It seems apart from Ifrit all other Primals only really temper their initial summoners and don't willingly roam the landscape brainwashing others, so Susano and Lakshmi's summoning are in keeping with this.

Also a lot of tempering is not even done by the actual Primal itself but by their intial tempered kidnapping people and immersing their prisoners in a Primal's leftover aetheric residue (this is how the sahagin create more 'drowned', and how the purple sylphs were changing their untempered brethren despite Ramuh no longer being present - they had gathered up the relevant Primal's aether and stored it, then immersed prisoners in it, tempering them (although apparently this process is not as effective as a Primal actually doing the tempering themself).

This is what those weird gas emitters are doing in the Sylphlands in the East Shroud - they're actually spewing Ramuh's aether throughout the forest. But I digress.

First, the echo itself doesn't prevent being tempered. Instead, it is the blessing of hydaelyn, which is some sort of stronger, all around form of echo (as opposed to the one-dimensionnal echo other NPCs like Krile have).

With that said, most primals haven't ever tried to temper other people. Ifrit and (sorta) leviathan did. Ramuh tempered only those willing to. Garuda controls the ixali by torturing them, titan only tempers those around when confronted to a situation it can't control by its power alone, and shiva doesn't temper ever.

Then in HW, Ravana doesn't care as long as it can fight strong people and is the hivemind anyway, bismarck doesn't care at all. As far as I remember, sephirot and sofia didn't even try to temper you, and zurvan was more a "aether leaking and tempering randomly" than a real decision he made. Thordan wanted to temper people on a large scale but died before it could try.

Now SB so far : Susano doesn't care, just like ravana. Lakshmi tried to temper you only because you made it and its followers face reality, considering what it did to the clan's mother's daughter. Shinryu DID try to temper us, but zenos refused it by pure willpower, showing that the tempering has its limits. If the difference in willpower between the tempering primal and the victim isn't that great, or in favor of the victim, the tempering might not be enough to prevent a recovery or just straight up fail.


As for why Ifrit's victims are mostly not able to recover, I think it's mostly because its willpower is huge considering its personality, and it tempers repeatedly its victims to fry their brains.