Let's discuss some problems Bard has, despite being incredibly fun

Coming from a player that has been through the thick and thin on ARR and HW, I very much enjoy the current iteration of Bard. I was also keen of the Bowmage playstyle in Heavensward and had some top-end parses during Creator. However, for all the fun it is playing the class right now, it is not without problems that need(?) addressing.

Any changes suggested below are just general thoughts in the vacuum, further adjustments may be necessary for them to be actually balanced. Also this is talking from mostly a gameplay point of view so please refrain from any: nuuu but MCH sucks already dun buff BRD comments since balance discussion as a whole is another can of worms that should and will be addressed.




First and foremost, the class is somewhat inconsistent due to the nature of it being extremely heavy on the RNG procs. Especially the very nature of Refulgent Arrow is problematic, due to it being the best thing to pair Barrage with. While it does add a modicum of desirable decision-making in terms of spending either spending GCDs to fish for it or saving your earlier proc to pair with Barrage, it is still very inconsistent to get the combo off. There are several things we could do to make the interaction more consistent, and here's a few suggestions:

1.) Make Empyreal Arrow also give you a Heavier Shot proc, making your next Heavy Shot cast also proc Straighter Shot and thus also Refulgent Arrow. This change would fit very well with both the current iterations of the currently recognized Bard openers while making the interaction feel somewhat fluid altogether.
2.) Make Heavy Shot proc progressive, giving an additional 10% chance to proc a Straighter Shot upon consecutive casts. Base chance could be reduced to 10% to compensate for the additional effect of it.

These are just quickly thought suggestions of mine to fix something I see as a very annoying interaction atm. I'm sure someone might have thought of more exciting interactions between Refulgent Arrow procs. However, as is, I think the current interaction needs changes. It feels more relieving than rewarding to land a Barrage+RA combo atm, and having to pair it with Empyreal Arrow due to a quirk of RNG feels just bad.

As for being inconsistent in general, I have some dummy parses up to around 4k over 3minutes as a i315 Bard with a very nice streak of proc-luck, with the lowest being around 3,5k with some absolutely horrible RNG. We're not talking about some minor fluctuation here. However, I wouldn't really like to touch the gameplay outside of RA interactions too much. One suggestion made in another thread I liked, however, was changing Raging Strikes into additional Crit Rate instead of additional Damage. This would interact much better with the way Bard procs work, as well as make double dot clipping worth it again even without additional buffs. It would definitely add a nice flavor to the gameplay I think, while also making the procs more consistent.




Second major problem I have with the class is the lack of meaningful sources of Piercing Debuff. With Dragoon in the gutters so to speak, getting a Dragoon for serious statics is a no-no unless 4.05 is going to swing the pendulum yet again. However, I don't see this dependence of Dragoons as a healthy design in the long run and would appreciate some changes to make our DPS less reliant on having them in the parties. Here are some suggestions I have been thinking of:

1.) Give the BRDs and MCHs a way to apply the buff themselves. This goes in line with all other DPS classes applying their own flavor debuffs and makes us less reliant in someone else enabling our full potential as DPS classes.
2.) Give the Piercing debuff to some other classes to make more meaningful synergy options. Pigeonholing us to pair with only Dragoons is not the way.
3.) Remove the Piercing synergy from Ranged completely and make our damage categorized as merely Unaspected Physical Damage. If this suggestion is seen as a problem, some kind of small potency increase could be done to our base damage to compensate. Piercing as it is right now is just a pretty problematic debuff to have from a competitive aspect. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

And this is not even counting the fact that Dragoons offer the very best party buff for us, the Battle Litany, which is super good with the way our procs work. Although that is fine by me, and the actual problem I have is with Piercing Debuff. In a meta with no Dragoons, everyone else in the party can play (nearly) up to their maximum capability. Compositions without Dragoons atm severely gimp ranged players and make them somewhat sad to play from a competitive viewpoint.


On the core of things, the class is very fun to play and I very much like the current iteration of Bard. I would not like to see major changes happen to the class that seems to be loved by many people now. I think it should get some minor tweaks, however.

I dont particularly mind the BRD DRG synergy but seeing as DRG isn't necessarily ideal atm, I can see where the lack of piercing debuff can be a problem. Honestly, with the massive overhaul to classes, I dont know why square thought they should also nerf disembowel before knowing exactly how each class would stack up in terms of personal dps. Every single class that has a debuff is 10% yet Dis is now 5% to prevent the MCH/BRD synergy being what it was in 3.0. Honestly all they really need to do for DRGs is revert the DIS changes. That 5% equates to around 6% damage for the DRG and based on current numbers, thats somewhere around a 200-250dps gain for the DRG not to mention a 2-4% damage buff for the bards and more for MCH. That small change would again open DRG viability for any Bard/MCH containing group (which is pretty much all of them atm). Yes I would love to see our buffs apply to ourselves and for the MP drain on Foe req to be a bit smaller, but in reality, there are other small changes that could go a long way.

It would be really nice if RA had a chance to refresh our SS buff too since we dont naturally do it with SS procs anymore.

I think our benifit from songs are enough, im ok with not getting the 2% crit buff. I think BV should affect us though.

Our class is very RNG songwise atm, but like many classes in other MMOs that have crit based mechanics, it's gear dependent. Early expac when stats are low, the procs are unreliable and sometimes cause major dps swings. Later expac, if left untouched, those mechanics become monsters and we have procs pouring out of our ears. I've noticed major changes going from 1500 crit raiting to 1800+ in terms of procs, especially with CS.

This is a personal problem, but one of the things that keeps me from getting into bard is the sheer number of buttons that I have to have on my bar and use fairly regularly. Heavy Shot, Split Shot, Bloodletter, both DoTs, Empyreal Arrow, Pitch Perfect, all three song attacks, Iron Jaws...And that's just at 60. Granted, at 64, the DoTs and Iron Jaws will see less regular usage, but they still get used regularly. Add in Rain of Death and Quick Knock, plus Refulgent Arrow at 70, and...it's just too many different buttons I have to use. I don't mind having to monitor multiple things at once, it can be fun, but it just feels so bloated.

I'm absolutely in love with BRD, but I do wish there were a few things. The RNG is great at times and horrible at times. I would love at the least BV to affect us, and I'm noticing the absence of DRGs a LOT. They're literally our partners in crime, they give us crit buffs and the piercing debuffs that we so crave.

I would love Raging Strikes to be Crit based instead of pure power based too.

The piercing debuff is the bigger issue here imo. It's hurting Bard, Machinist and also Dragoon - in the latter case because SE counts the debuff as contributed damage for Dragoons while balancing, even though they also have to assume the debuff's presence when balancing Bard and Machinist. In that way, they're "double counting" the debuff and hurting all three jobs.

The reason the slashing debuff works, is that there are 3 jobs that apply it and 2 jobs that need it, of which you will always have at least one. Because it's easy enough to get - run either a WAR or NIN or SAM - SE doesn't need to "credit" the granting class with the damage it provides to PLD / DRK. They can just assume it will be there when balancing PLD and DRK and call it a day.

In order to fix piercing debuff, you would want to avoid trivializing it - giving it to BRD and MCH is -not- an option because then the debuff might as well not exist, in other words.

With the slashing debuff there are still two jobs that don't apply it, even if they're tanks, so it serves as a group-building restriction in that way. And with MNK being the only blunt damage job, it's fine just to have DK be what it is. But having 3 out of 3 piercing jobs give the same debuff just so that it exists (as opposed to just buffing the jobs' base numbers separately) would be kind of silly.

So with that said, I think the options are:

1) Remove the piercing debuff from the game. Make Disembowel a self-buff of some kind for DRG, and buff BRD and MCH in some way to make up for the loss.

MCH is easier because you can just make Hot Shot 15% (when you might have just made it 10% otherwise to close the MCH-BRD gap). For BRD, you don't reallly want to buff SS enough to make 5% up (it'd need to go to 20%), so I'd try putting SS at +15% and AP at +8% since AP could use some sadness reduction anyway.

2) Give the piercing debuff to RDM. Possibly on Impact, with the 30s duration, and then make its dash-in combo deal (~5% less) physical piercing damage. This may be a small nerf (RDM likes MNK all of a sudden, but they can't Embolden their big combo) but it would add a little wrinkle to a job in RDM that could use one.

Then, you can stop counting the debuff as part of DRG's contribution, and just imagine it will be there when balancing BRD/MCH. "Bring RDM or DRG" is a littttle restrictive when you have 9 DPS for four slots though, so you'd need to feel really good about the balance of the remaining five after BRD / MCH (or just cede the +5% on your ranged physical dps, or don't bring one).

3) Flip the script by giving BRD and MCH a +10% piercing debuff that overwrites Disembowel's. With 2 jobs granting and one job needing the debuff, you'd have a more-okay arrangement where BRD / MCH become a "must" when you have a DRG whereas they're just a nice-to-have without.

I'm fine with them giving the piercing debuff to rdm. but the real question is why is this still a mechanic? Why are bards and MCH still the only physical dps classes that rely on another class to provide our "vulnerability" debuff. It feels like at this point, that SE should just change the debuff to "physical vulnerability" and get rid of blunt / piercing / slashing resistance downs altogether. It would make it MUCH simpler to balance the classes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KalinOrthos

This is a personal problem, but one of the things that keeps me from getting into bard is the sheer number of buttons that I have to have on my bar and use fairly regularly. Heavy Shot, Split Shot, Bloodletter, both DoTs, Empyreal Arrow, Pitch Perfect, all three song attacks, Iron Jaws...And that's just at 60. Granted, at 64, the DoTs and Iron Jaws will see less regular usage, but they still get used regularly. Add in Rain of Death and Quick Knock, plus Refulgent Arrow at 70, and...it's just too many different buttons I have to use. I don't mind having to monitor multiple things at once, it can be fun, but it just feels so bloated.

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It literally cramps my wrists and I play on gamepad. Like it's a pretty fun job, but man it kills me physically.

Even though I completely agree with the issues OP addressed, I do not agree with the Empyreal Arrow solution that the OP has come up with. It would make Empyreal Arrow too strong/important really. As for the piercing debuff, while it is a good addition to BRD's dps, I feel that not having it would not really harm us heavily, as other skills we have ("utility") compensate that loss. As for the buttons, I don't think it's really a problem for me. Not going to go in specific about the buttons needed to press for all skills, the HW bard also has a similar amount of skills for pressing.

Overall, apart from RnG problem, I don't think Bard has any major issues that is needed to be addressed. Besides, RnG doesn't seem to pose us a huge problem currently apart from having fluctuation in dps.

Nice ideas. Taken together these changes would make BRD OP, but I suppose that reducing the potency of a couple of skills would be enough to avoid it.

I don't think the RNG is a super real problem, it's fine to have a job that's like that imo. My mostly-QoL wishlist (after of course the piercing debuff being dumb) would be:

1) Make Refulgent proc quicker. Having it occur at the tail end of the HS animation makes it difficult to impossible to react properly if you need to shuffle your oGCDs in reaction to a proc, i.e. you were expecting to Bar-EA, then RA procs and now you'd much rather EA-Bar - but because you didn't react in time to avoid pressing Bar first, you have to leave EA sitting there until the next GCD because you can't use it before RA once Barrage is up.

2) Change Pitch Perfect to a 1s cooldown. The gripe here is that at the end of WM, if you have ~2 GCDs left and use a 3PP in the first, the 3s cooldown prevents you from using a follow-up proc before WM expires. And even when it doesn't, it prevents you from being able to PP-MB in that oGCD as desired and you either clip into a GCD, forfeit the PP, or drop song for a second or so, a dilemma that exists for no actually good reason.

3) Make Army's Paeon less sad. This would invariably be a buff of some kind, so any MCH buffs would need to be enlargened to compensate. As for the nature of the buff, I think AP could go as high as 8% and it wouldn't be a problem of any significance. That'd at least make it better than MB in non-crit-buffed situations. Alternately or additionally, the stacks could increase your RA proc odds, if we're digging for a way to get BarRA more reliably. I'd kind of rather not see the pvp version where stacks add % damage, because IJ snapshotting math is convoluted enough as it is.