is BRD a better support choice than MCH in 4.0?

Comparison between bard VS Machinist
FOE VS Dismantle/Rend mind: seems like FOE is better just because its applies to all enemies near by + you can cast it up MOST of the time unlike dismantle/rend mind with a 90s cd.

Songs VS hyper-charge: the songs now can increase group party member crit by 2% with 15% battle voice and depend on a songs it also reduces magical/physical vulnerability by 10% while hyper-charge only reduces by 5% BUT!!! it has 60s less CD compare to troubadour.

notes that BRD also gets 2 support skills while MCH gets none. YES they are both meant to play as a "support/dps" role but i feel like MCH carries more dmg of their own while bard got less dmg also carries more utilities for their group. which one would you prefer to have in your group for end game raiding?

As it stands, one could say more of the MCH kit was modified to make the role actions for both. Both got a rework, though BRD needed it more than MCH did. I would hope that in the absence of the utilities that BRD has with their songs now, we MCH become more of a raw damage physical ranged who can still render support where needed. I personally don't agree with the Overheating debuff, but there are work arounds. Still with the return of autos and increased potencies, I hope and expect MCH will shine more in damage than support.

I guess we'll see in a few weeks

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Originally Posted by Jilliebeans

Comparison between bard VS Machinist

Songs VS hyper-charge: the songs now can increase group party member crit by 2% with 15% battle voice and depend on a songs it also reduces magical/physical vulnerability by 10% while hyper-charge only reduces by 5% BUT!!! it has 60s less CD compare to troubadour.

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Troubadour doesn't brings damage, its for enemies, its defensive, Reduces Magical/Physical Vulnerability by 10%, its for party members, its not for enemies.

Damage wise bard brings +2% crit with 100% uptime and +15% Direct Hit during 20 seconds every 3 minutes (Battle Voice). It looks like Foe's Requiem Tooltip could be wrong and its not 3% damage reduction from enemies but +3% magic damage taken, but its not clear at all yet.

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Originally Posted by Jilliebeans

notes that BRD also gets 2 support skills while MCH gets none. YES they are both meant to play as a "support/dps" role but i feel like MCH carries more dmg of their own while bard got less dmg also carries more utilities for their group. which one would you prefer to have in your group for end game raiding?

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I dont know whether you are referring to TP/MP managemente, both MCH and BRD have the same, TP/MP regen is an Action Rol for MCH and BRD, both can pick whatever they want, TP or MP or both.

unless am reading it wrong BUT troubadour reduces magical/physical vulnerability by 10% which mean your group member gain 10% more magical/physical dmg for 30s, so yes troubadour does bring dmg boost for ur group lol.

yes i know they both share the same class role but let be honest here, MP/TP regen isnt going to be as "useful" for BRD/MCH in 4.0 just because the cd is like 180s which is pretty long also now that mages can gives mana to healer, i doubt that brd/mch has to worry about it. Anyway my point is that would you take a BRD with more support utilities or a MCH with less utilities but more raw dmg?

Based on how Bard and Machinist are being designed it seems they are separating Bard and Machinist more than just gameplay but by function as well

Bard is the Group Support always providing party buff focusing completely on Party buffing with their damage boost being starting out as 4% then 8% then 12% then 16% on one Song for 30 seconds and 2% crit chance increase for the party BUT they do not have a passive self damage boost anymore due to WM changes.

Machinist focus more now on being the Pure Range DPS Job now with their mechanic focus on maintaining that 50 to 99% Heat to maintain a self 15% damage buff.


Stack that Machinist' 15% damage buff with Bard's 16% damage buff from their song will give Machinist a 31% damage and 2% crit chance buff but Bard would only have a 14% damage and 2% crit chance buff only if Bard and Machinist are pared together.

Though that means self damage wise Machinist may have higher damage than Bard for being focus more as the Pure Damage Range Job as a Machinist who can maintain a balance of 50% to 99% heat will always have a 15% damage boost for the entire run while a Bard will only have a damage boost during their Army's Peon for a Party buff that starts at 4% then reach 16% once there is around 4 seconds left for a duration of 30 seconds only but then lost it 4 seconds later for a new song.

In long run of things it comes down to the choice of having a pure party buff Job being Bard or a pure range damage Job being Machinist.

hmm.. i dont think bard gives any other dmg buff to party beside "troubadour" tho, Army peon only increase bard dmg buff by itself not for party (unless the translation is wrong). But you do have a good point tho, i guess they wanted to make bard and machinist to pared together even better in group while one being support and other can be just pure dps in the group.

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Originally Posted by Jilliebeans

unless am reading it wrong BUT troubadour reduces magical/physical vulnerability by 10% which mean your group member gain 10% more magical/physical dmg for 30s, so yes troubadour does bring dmg boost for ur group lol.

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You are actually reading it wrong. You reduce vulnerability of your allies. Your allies take less damage. Notice how the Mage's Ballad version gives bonus HP? They are all 3 defensive.

Famitsu tooltips reveal likely errors in some of BRD and MCH's information, some of which I'll address below in my comparison.

Before comparing it should be noted that all evidence points to overheating on MCH increasing your damage by 20% until it locks out, meaning it will be an essential component to Wildfire.

*Foe Requiem seems to increase damage taken by targets by 3%. Phys/Mag isn't specified so it likely means 3% from all sources. BRD also has a persistent 2% crit buff, and every 3m a 15% direct hit buff.
*Rook Turret Hypercharge also doesn't specify Phys-Resist down in either Eng or Jpn, so it could be 5% more damage from all sources. That said, it's single target and BRDs is most likely still an aoe effect, though switching targets CAN cause the rook to spread the effect, assuming the debuff works the same way as it does currently.

*In the Jpn tooltip, Dismantle reduces all damage outgoing on the target by 10%, not just physical.
*Alongside this, Troubadour can increase either physical resist or magical resist by 10%, or HP by 15%. MCH's is easier to use but only affects one target, much like the above debuffs - though Troubadour has twice the cooldown.

*BRD has Warden's Paean and that new Minne move (single target Convalescence), 2 support tools MCH has no answer for.

All information is subject to change, of course, but it looks at the moment as though

*MCH is superior for single target increased damage; the debuff can be spread by changing targets, but BRD can just play based on their MP and is generally better on multiple targets. Constant tiny crit buff and very occasional D.Hit buffs could more or less make them equal but we can't really say for now.
*MCH has a single target Virus every 90s, BRD has a party defense buff every 3 minutes. MCH gets 2 for every BRD's one. The difference between them, again, makes MCH superior against single enemies since you're more or less getting the same defensive utility for raid damage but more often, and it's also less of a waste to use on single hit tank busters. BRD's troubadour is superior if raid damage is coming from multiple enemies. The BRD buff also sustains for much longer than Dismantle's 5s duration which will need precise timing to be effective.

So as it stands...I wouldn't say Bard is absolutely a clear winner. They definitely have a slight defensive edge with Minne, Paean (as situational as it is), and Troubadour being a party wide buff; though Dismantle has less of a niche use and can be used twice as often. At this point it's hard to say whether Hypercharge 5% Vs Foe 3% + 2%Crit + 15% D.Hit compare. Requiem can be staggered / more easily used than a one off cooldown. At this stage I'd be tempted to say that BRD is definitely superior for multi target, but MCH might pull ahead with single target. All this of course still doesn't take into account their personal dps compared to each other. So for now while I'd say BRD has the more attention-grabbing support, and Requiem is more flexible than Hypercharge, I don't think there's a definitive enough difference to say at this stage until we can actually play and number crunch

thank you so much for corrected me on those informations!!! do we know for sure if Foe either reduces dmg taken or increase dmg taken by 3%?